Pistol Grip - How much does support hand placement affect muzzle climb?

Great vid. Glad you didn't disprove the laws of physics. The world is messed up enough already. Whew!

In the comparison, your support side index finger comes off the trigger guard which means the gun is moving in your hand. I'm sure you'll see a lot less movement once you nail that down.

Like you mentioned, I think people with small(er) hands will have a hard time holding onto the gun with a high grip. 100% contact > reduced muzzle flip.

I don't see it. You looked more accurate with your regular grip. The Mantis graph on the High grip looks like brain wave from schizophrenic patient. Screw it, do what feels good. That's been working for sixty years.
Of course I don't shoots comps, and don't care enough. Good vid though.

Rapid-fire demands your best grip if you expect to put rounds on target. So it's a HiGrip that wins

I’ve found the same to be true for me. But I’ve yet to switch because the Vogel style puts more strain on my wrist and hand that I’m good with. Plus, it seems to be slower and more meticulous to build for me. 🤷‍♂️

I was taught to get as "high", or tilted forward, as possible, and really press back on the bottom of the grip to hold the muzzle down while pressing forward and up with the other hand. Really stressed getting my elbow up and out. I was being taught on a Glock 19, which has a more forward grip angle also. Seemed like he was never satisfied with how exaggerated it got. But, it really transformed my accuracy and consistency. All in one lesson.

EVERYONE: Please go watch Yong Lee’s video titled “Pistol Grip Technique (Finger Over Trigger Guard). It’s probably less than 5 min long, and in it he focuses less on the technique he named the video after, and more on the critical role that the support hand and joint manipulation play in mitigating muzzle flip while shooting at speed. Near the end of the video he demonstrates this by removing his entire dominant hand from the pistol (except for his trigger finger, of course) and then proceeds to fire 5 or 6 shots while controlling the pistol’s recoil better than 90% of the people I see at the range are able to do with both hands death gripping the gun. It’s really an amazing demonstration that I think everyone who is serious about their pistol shooting would benefit tremendously from watching.

I shoot bob Vogel’s high grip style, my accuracy got much better.

you need some grip tape or stipple... that sucker moves around quite a bit in your hands!

Great experiment! Thanks for this.

I don't agree with your grip. I tried your gun grip and the gun almost flew out of my hands. I had to make an adjustment with my hands. I shoot left handed. So my right thumb crosses over my left thumb. This creates a more stable and stronger grip. The gun does not feel like it's going to jump out of my hands. I've used this grip for 30 years and it always worked.

Im I the only one who finds comfort with support index finger on the front of trigger guard??

Turns out I have already have a Mantis X, and so should you, but so far only used it for dry fire practise. Gives me an idea to take it out on this weekend's match. As for the face tat, well, no gonna pass.

When I put my thumb up that high, I can no longer put the web of my hand deep into the top of the pistol grip. Is that ok?

Would be interesting to see the recoil data if you tried the Eric G/Yong Lee finger-over-trigger-guard grip!

Well it looks to me like the normal grip tracks much better.👍🇺🇸

Crap I was working on my interpretive dance moves....now I got to get a dang tat😂👍🇺🇸

Do you push out with both arms? Or do you push main arm and pull with support arm?

Look at your watch in the slo-mo shots - with the "higher" grip, your watch shakes a lot less, indicating your wrist is indeed "locked in" and the recoil is being transferred further back into your shoulders. Otherwise, recoil is working to can't your wrist back, yielding higher muzzle rise. Neat!

Hi, I saw some time ago your video about recoil control interviews and it was so much interesting for me. I watched all the Kwansik videos a lot of times and always i undestand a bit more.
So, here in Argentina it's difficult to go shooting for Covid but i made an experiment last week and works for me. I had the problem of the muzzle bumping during recoil no mater what i do. I realize that the problem was that in my relax position with the arm in position as shooting one handed, (or two handed), the front deltoid muscle contracts and should'n be contracted. Without a gun i made exactly the same and the muscle contracts too, so i made some exersices "to learn to relax" this muscle. Last week i went shooting and the results was totaly diferents, the gun didn't bump anymore!. I will upload the "before and after video" in my channel. Thanks for the video!

Hey man. Found ya after hearing you on that podcast about ghosts. I wonder if the high canted wrist benefits could be a result of the support hand pinky levering against the bottom of the grip, rather than a result of the actual wrist/thumb positioning. Good stuff!

Can you try this out on the new LTT RDO? It would be interesting to see the results on a different gun that's a more normal grip angle.

cranked the likes over 1K! very intricate. love the slo mo

Your grip is no-no.

Dude i fucking love your videos.

You could use a lighter recoil spring which would reduce the nose-dive during recoil. Lots of things come into play. Not just grip.

I've been working on the wedge hold lately. It seems to work for me so far.

hey, i like the analytical approach. well done. if the tools are available, why not use them! please tell Mantis to show the shot screen for the last 25 shots! they will listen to you, not me!

I personally shoot much better with the more mutual grip.

It works....plain and simple!

Noticed also the space on your back thumb , if you lay it flat against your other thumb you eliminate that gap . That small gap will move the gun around also

Enjoy your videos a lot! What is that on the bottom of your slide? Wondering if it is a camera?

Awesome comparison, love how you break everything down and test scientifically. Talking like you know is one thing and proving is another!

Great video!!

Your sample is very small to draw any conclusions.

Hey mate, my .02 from the peanut gallery. I'd imagine the high grip is similar to a C clamp grip in a carbine. But will wait for the tactical bro's to chime in.

I switched to the high grip awhile back. I feel like I am able to apply more pressure on the grip with less effort.

My defense handguns are also subcompacts where the smallest grip is two fingers with a flat floor plate. Shooting with a high grip allows me to use all support hand fingers and, like I mentioned above, I feel I am able to apply more pressure than a neutral grip. Since subcompacts are my carry guns, I shoot all other guns the same with a high grip. It makes more sense to me so I don't have to practice two or more grip styles.

Downsides: on some guns I end up either preventing the slide from locking back when empty or, with the XD-M Elite, I cause the slide to lock open with rounds still in the magazine. I think I'm going to have to change my grip to be lower.

@TheHumbleMarksman
What's your assessment 2 years later?
I'm trying to move up but not forward atm.

Watch any Jerry Michulek video, he talks about high on the gun and wrists locked. That being said, not easy for me either

Thank you very much for an informative topic, I really enjoy your content.

You should put your support index across the front of the trigger guard.

I changed my grip a few years ago after watching Vogel on Taran's channel. Its obnoxiously aggressive. He rolls his support wrist forward and torques into it. I have large hands and found that I could use that grip with my thumb on the picitanny rail, specifically on the weapon light. It was a game changer.

3 yrs later, did you changed your grip? would you say its different now vs then?

Speaking of logo and shirts where is ur store I want to buy some

What recoil spring did you have in this? That thing was dipping like crazy!

Admittedly, I have a weak left elbow so maybe this is particular to me, but when I do the exaggerated grip I find that my left arm is a slightly shorter radius to the gun than my right and doesn’t allow a balanced presentation. Interesting observations from you though. Thanks much.

I take this video as being geared toward the competitive crowd.
In regards to the various grip specifics i ," as a combat grip" thumbs down proponet would be interested to see some sort of evaluation of thumbs forward as opposed to thumbs down in combat situations such as weapons retention .
Foe example one could simulate a gun grab while the shooter is thumbs foreward then the same with thumbs down.
In the one event wherein i had to use my weapon in defense i dont even think i was securly holding the pistol. I could not tell you how i was grasping the damn thing.
That was my experience as a guy who had tons of training in an official capacity but only one scenario in which i needed a deadly weapon.

Noob here but in dry fire practice everything seems fine but then at the range I tend to fall back on a more natural grip. Shadow 2