The Bitcoin Debate with Jeff Booth & George Gammon

Gammon is right we still practice bloodletting, burn witches, believe we won't fly, and the earth is flat. 
Bitcoin is learning and people will have (want) to change.

This video rules. Top 5 of the year for you. Well done Peter and Danny!

George needs to hit the books

I worked with drug addicts for over 10 years. I know intimately the thought process and the rationalizations, the enabling of outside influences and many other factors that go into the perpetuation of addictive behavior. To a person who is not an addict, the behavior of an addict is self destructive, irrational, and after some time you start to realize it will never change. But on the rare occasion that an addict breaks free of their addiction and changes not just their behavior, but their heart and mind, about some of the most fundamental things regarding life, liberty, responsibility and consequences The strangest thing happens. They become free of the addictive behavior. This is a microcosm of what’s happening between the two systems that Gammon and Booth are talking about. Gammon it is stuck in the addiction mentality. It’s a hopeless, helpless mindset that fails to be able to see a way out. Jeff booth is living in the free mentality, that looks at the addict and just can’t quite get them to see past their addiction. The world is addicted to fiat money, fiat food, Fiat Church, Fiat everything. I don’t know if a bitcoin standard will cause a mass conversion on a global scale, but I do know that it happened to me and many other people I know.

The development of quantum computers is a risk to the security of Bitcoin

I'm into Bitcoin. I don't think about it making me rich. If it approximately holds its value over time, I would be happy - although I think it will do better than that due to scarcity. My main reason for holding Bitcoin is to have an exit plan because the UK and West generally is becoming increasingly authoritarian. My Bitcoin is completely transportable and confiscation resistant. All I need to do is hide a 12 word seed phrase which I could probably keep in my head if it comes to it. I can go through Customs checks at the airport with that seed phrase in my head or secreted in a clever way. I will of course need Fiat but just the minimum necessary for daily life. My exit plan will be to have a base in a Bitcoin friendly jurisdiction. I think we will see more and more Bitcoin friendly jurisdictions in the future.

Thank you for trying to explain to George Jeff and gosh you have patience

George you make so good videos pointing out the failures in the current economic system

Just stick with that

You’re a great persons to both of you.

Interesting topic I just lean with Jeff but I to have invested more than 10.000 hours understanding Bitcoin

In a deflationary world is there the same need to chase yield? People are only so desperate to see their savings increase because of how quickly the real value is decreasing

Jeff's thinking/evaluation/analyses definitely centered in the balance! He's also absolutely correct, that all of the so-called experts, as well others debating these subjects are using information/parameters & data points from INSIDE THE EXISTING SYSTEMS. Therefore, they are trying to measure (compare with) mostly archaic (physically/mentally embedded for many generations) factors/parameters, against something new/revolutionary that's never been done in history.

As far as human nature, the biggest (most effective, most powerful) factors are the proper incentives!

All of these comparisons of current dynamics to hundreds of years ago (even to late 1800s), without taking into account the advancements/evolution in everything around, mskes those comparisons flawed, or at best an academic discussion with multiple theoretical data points.

I have no problem with Jeff nor with George but i have a major issue with folks that believe Bitcoin is the American/European standard,the whole freedom and liberty brigade. What if tomorrow the Saudis or Putin free up their energy for mining or accept payments in BTC to build reservers,???? What if BRICS notice their curency won't work therefore instead implement BTC, a more neautral currency?????What if China decides to go nuts on micro-proccessors production for proof of work cryptos????? What i love about George is that he pierces through the echo chamber that most bitcoiners live in,whether he's right or wrong, i respect that.

Why does neither of them think we might be running into planetary boundaries as we speak? Where will all this exponentially growing amount of energy come from that is needed to create this abundance/deflationary world? What will be the impact on our planet/ecosystem if at all feasible?
Also no mention of a General AI/Superintelligence that has a high likelihood of ending all of it/us these next few years…

Really appreciate both perspectives - one that honored human nature while the other saying the future will not look like the past based on incentives.

It’s not often u hear respectful discussion on differing perspectives and I really appreciate hearing that it’s possible. Conflict can really scare me ! Ahahah but this made it feel ok 😌

George wins, even if Jeff is right, in which case Jeff wins, but not today.

there should be a drinking game: every time Jeff says "if its stays decentralized and secure" you take a shot...

Jeff - super zen!

great episode

This was a very interesting conversation, am I correct in saying , the government didn’t necessarily print more money , the inflation is coming from more debt from Banks ?

Jeff is talking about what the world will look like in 100 years, George is talking about the next 20.

So Lyn Alden posted this on X, please consider she works or advises both of these gentleman, I hope this explains what GG is harping about going back to the 1800’s:

This was a good and important discussion to have, especially from my perspective of having partnered with both George and Jeff on certain projects.

I have a handful of points from my research to add for those that might find them useful:

-I don't think the money supply growth from 1880 to 1900 is a good baseline comparison to modern times or to Bitcoin. The US had people and capital pouring into it from around the world as a new exploratory jurisdiction, with nearly limitless unsettled land for settlers to acquire, along with rapid industrialization. Developed countries at the time had a much tighter correlation between M2 and CPI than the US had. The US was the anomaly. See my attached comparison between the US and UK from 1870-2021 for an initial example.

-Gold is able to be fractionally reserved for long stretches because it grows in supply at 1.5% per year (and in the 1800s US grew faster than that for a period of time) and is slow to transport and authenticate which gives bank claims a decent comparative advantage vs physical possession, but after decades that gold fractional reserve blows up and they have to devalue or depeg.

-Fiat is able to be fractionally reserved indefinitely because central authorities can directly expand the monetary base to support the broad amount of IOUs whenever there is a crisis. They can prevent the broad money supply from collapsing in a crisis by keeping the majority of IOUs money-good via printing. But of course the downside is constant dilution for those that hold it. When the dilution becomes too great, people seek out monetary alternatives.

-Bitcoin shakes off large fractional reserve attempts much faster than both gold and fiat because it has zero terminal supply growth and can be settled very quickly. In other words, the "credit rekt cycle" is a matter of years rather than decades. Anyone trying to borrow in bitcoin or fractionally lend bitcoin in multiples of its monetary base is going to get rekt in comparatively short order. The portability of that capital, the speed of that capital, and the zero supply growth of that unit, is unprecedented and makes a huge difference compared to the gold standard era and the fiat era. But of course, the longevity of that system is tied to Jeff's flow chart divergence point regarding Bitcoin being able to remain decentralized and secure, or not. It's largely an if/else outcome in that regard.

-Transparency of taxation is an important variable to consider. For example, it's easier to pay for the US-Iraq war (popular in the US at the time) by printing the money opaquely than by imposing a 10% real-time income war tax (which would be far less popular). The printing provides the government with opaqueness and time delays, which enables it to grow in unproductive and unpopular areas. A government that is unable to print the base layer of money and instead must tax for it is forced to be more transparent, and thus has more trouble doing things that are grossly unpopular (unless it manages to get such a compete information lock on its people as per North Korea and other despot edge cases, which are important to prevent against proactively).

Can Bitcoin bring value? It could.. but questions have to be answered first, like: who’s really behind it? What happens if you were to find out that it’s North Korea and that they own with China and Russia more than 51% of the hash power? It would go to ZERO faster than you could blink…
Bitcoin is not safe… for as long as we will be in the dark about the creators.. imagine the lawsuits coming to those ETF providers when the truth will surface: they have a fiduciary responsibility towards investors, and unlike a commodity, Bitcoin has creators, is subject to a 51%attack on the ledger… I mean the whole point of a distributed ledger is truth, if there’s any possibility of a collusion (there is) then it will be exploited… google, Microsoft, USA, federal reserve…

GG has no idea whatsoever regarding the pLandemic mega scam.

I feel George needs a good shag or some thing ? 😅or a smoke of a joint. He’s seems tense .

George always seems really pissed off with his tone. I can imagine him going off at home 😅. The same vibes I get off Charlie Kirk.

​​So... what if black rock and all of the other multinational corps get together with the biggest governments and buy up all of the stock of all of the public mining companies, then start many many more until they achieve 51% of the hashrate... what then?

Please help me understand: What is the relationship between instant settlement and fractional reserve? Why would instant settlement reduce the need / desire for fractional reserve (as George was saying.). Thanks

europe seems to be very 100% draconian, crazy but true !

Prices don’t fall to the marginal cost of production. Where do they find these random stupid “gurus”

just from the tone of their voices you can understadn one is trying to wind you up by charming you with his calm voice, while the other one is just saying sensible things speaking as every normal person does, with clarity, becasue he doesn't need to fake it, he is speakign real.

there is obiovusly a realist and a dreamer in this debate.

Wicked discussion. ☀️🌴. Thank you gentlemen. Coming from a country that has had currency erosion of 2000% (against the $) since 1994 I am not expecting any API. Not interested at all. Malevolent governments will be kept in check when they are forced to keep their hands out the cookie jar.

Amazing!

Something about George just annoys me. I'm all for different perspectives but I see that he argues to argue sometimes (I get this is a debate). Jeff explains everything very articulate. George, I start following his arguments and I just loose focus on what he says. He is very stubborn.

How the BTC OGs are sleeping on BTC 2.0 outstanding

gotta love the 'muhhh Bitcoin fixes this because muhhh freedom' guys WHO REMAIN IN CANADA after 2020-2022 ... shows all they really care is muhhh number go up

Great show Peter. Would love to hear a follow-up show with these two to game play the fiat banking with Bitcoin and how they all fail eventually.

Cannot believe how many nerds there are out there ( myself included) who listen to this heady type of stuff.
Re:George, I Love hearing an alternative BTC perspective that’s not the one I adhere to, let’s agree to disagree.
Re: Jeff, his delivery is unconvincing but his message is so thoroughly thoughtful that it’s way more instructive than debatable.

Gammon is right that there will be “paper” built on top of Bitcoin, Jeff is right that Bitcoin is effectively going to be Gold

Jeff has a long term vision thesis laid out which makes sense. But George appropriately pokes holes in it regarding the practicality of literally achieving the vision Jeff has laid out. Fascinating discussion, it underscores the very reason why we have markets; different folks, different opinions that will equalize at a price somewhere in the middle. Great pod WBD, love this type of forum. We need to entertain these questions and figure it out.

I’m not sure if this gammon guy has a functional brain

George, Jeff and Peter. The way conversation should be. Thank you all for the thought provoking insights and the inspirational example. There’s still hope 😂

Newton’s third law: For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction.

Booth is talking about this.

Gammon is talking about previous human action under different technologies.

George pounding the table saying voters wiill afdect how bitcoin operates is hysterical. He really doesn't get it. Voters crying will bring printing of paper money NOT bitcoin. Its so simple and him being confused is our advantage.

Can't wait for another 5 years to pass and Gammon holding his toilet paper money and we are holding Bitcoin and he cries for voters to give him some bitcoin😂 voters can't produce Bitcoin like they can dollars

It's hard to understand why Gammon doesn't get it....

If the government tried to increase the supply of bitcoin to >21M, that’s just another hard fork. The bitcoin nodes that reject that software change, will still continue having the 21M cap and bitcoin continues on uninterrupted.

A yield is just leveraging your $'s, elevating prices earning value by doing nothing. That does not create value as it corners markets preventing others with less wealth from affording ownership locking them in a life of mortgage or rent slaves.

Earning a yield doesn't create value, it strips it, and in order to maintain it you must expand your money supply to make your lenders whole when people default.

In a dollar world yoyu must barrow to have anything. In bitcoin you will have more without ever barrowing.

George seems trapped in a world with high prices. If I were a bank why would I lend bitcoin if it appreciates at 15% annually? I wouldn't because I won't be able to collect 115% from the person who defaults. As such, as virtually nobody will receive loans, the price of everything will drop to utility value. In other words, working and saving for a decade will allow you to buy a home cash and not ever pay a mortgage.

When people who are playing with cash see bitcoin savers get ahead while they are living in debt then people will wake up.

Bitcoin appreciates, dollar depreciates, bitcoin frees, the dollar creates life-long debt slaves. The cost of homes in dollars will go up, the cost in bitcoin will go down. The cost in human capital as dollars fund wars, the cost in bitcoin as people live and have jobs maintaining mining rigs so jobs vs death.

I have no doubt bitcoin will wipe out all currencies, just no prediction on the time horizon.