You don't need a frontend framework

What's that font in the code editor he's using?

I would agree but with the current state of things doing things the “modern” way actually takes less time often.

So if it’s considered overkill but takes less time then why not

Today i was having a similar conversation with a friend, and is a little battle of me asking, why you need to recreate HTML to spit HTML to the browser, thanks to make it and know im not alone in this crazy idea.

Regards from Patagonia Argentina

PS: I'm gonna have to read more about HTMX

no way in hell I am going back 10+ years to a time I was writing php to handle my HTML templates... this sounds OK when you have a single easy page... but unless you are hafing like a landing page dispalying data from CMS... we all know "sprinkle" some JS mantra is going down the shitter... which is in most of the cases.

So funny how things are going full circle... like when JS with ajax was starting taking over the BE world... and the "OGs" were like... no, that's laughable, for JS (a joke language) to control our apps... we will never consider this to be anthing but a fad ...

and now is happening the same, just backwards.


But, I think I was one of the OGs, that never thought that, JS and ajax is a bad idea... jQuery and after SPAs just made the web a beautiful place... that over the years just got consolidated.

I think separation of concerns is super important. and I think html templates are part of the DOM and front end stack and has no place being on the backend...

But I get it... I mean in Balkan, people say "100 ljudi - 100 cudi" which mean 100 people have different views. To each their own would be the expression... but with all these new frameworks and ways of thinking... it feels like we are getting more divided and we are pulling all in different directions instead of one... (or couple) ... is quite tyring ...

Server side renderingg

"let me just write this brittle and ugly code to show you that i dont know what client side routing is"

Well nextjs is a backend framework now so

This lacks all animation / transition between pages

Memes aside there is a lot worse with the backend only implementation...

nice, remaind me miss time that i working with laravel. i will back to laravel again with your idea here

If you have multiple clients, returning serialised data is ideal.

goated example of why rendering HTML on the server is the best option.

hm, i mean, i agree with you, but imagine that the list only has +-100 elements... in that case, filtering on the FE will be more efficient as you don't need to fetch the data each time

u sound so serious but u look stupid

I have 500k users...... Holy network requests batman

What font/typography are you using here? I want your typog

how can i take you seriously when you pronounce it 'Jayce-ON' ?

As an olde webmaster who stopped paying attention after the LAMP days: you guys haven't been doing this??

isn't this the same as returning the jsx in nextjs?? please respond i'm curious

Can't you see you're already complicating the whole thing, and I'm just about half way into the video.
With Vue, you wouldn't have all this complexity. Just filter your data on the client, or call an api to fetch sorted data.

Isn't that SSR or hydration?

Simple pages don't need front-end frameworks complex pages where you have dynamic (user created) things, editors complex styles is a pain in the ass to do without a framework. Every front-end app I worked on for example used google material which is kinda available without a framework but it's not that good. And I don't think our backend guys would have appreciated to code js and I wouldn't want to lurk around complex backend business logics for my pretty animations. So just for separating the teams and codebases it's good too. Also if you support multiple platforms js frameworks are a no-brainer. Also if you're into webdev but you don't want to learn server stuff just handling some json-s are fun. I'm grateful that I almost never have to do backend

The only justifying case is when you're targeting anything other than web. Yes I hate PWA

I don't know.

The moment noone is forcing a particular tech stack down my throat, I keep reverting to good old plain vanilla HTML/JavaScript/PHP.

Comes more natural and intuitive to me, everything else feels unnecessarily cluttered.

While we are heaving frameworks on top of frameworks, what we seem to be overlooking is that it might be time to completely rethink the core languages themselves.

Douglas Crockford has a very interesting perspective on that, and he co-authored Javascript back in the 90s.

Good. Now go build an api for a mobile app anyway. Oh wait!

Htmx mentioned

If you build apps with a big scope you'll know why

Server components in react/next js essentially do what you’re saying, they return the jsx.

Use what you need to get the job done, but nothing more.
That's always been my guiding pricipal in development, so I completely agree with what you are saying here.

this guy literally uses worst programming font possible. why should we take his opinions seriously, lol

I'm learning how to use javascript in emergency mode as i need only a login page and dashboard for a uni project to show data from an esp32. I can not find a single tutorial without frameworks. I don't need them, I only need a graph with two variables and two gauges.

no one gonna talk about the vscode font? 🫣😭

Can I use this code as template for school?

the point is to make responsive ui that feels alive (animations and shit, different ui states etc.)

So we are slowly coming full circle back to the basics after years of trying to reinvent the wheel and overcomplicate things. I guess frontend devs were just really bored in the last decade 😂

You don’t need a programming language.

You don’t need binary.

You don’t need a computer.

You don’t need Silicon.

You don’t need atoms.

You don’t need 3 Spatial Dimensions.

You don’t need a Universe.

What Theme are you using? it looks very nice

Agree, HTML is easy. No "translation layers", that's my philosophy in development "Avoid translation, chase simplicity"

I presented HTMX to my company literally last Friday and I think we will end up using it because we build the kind of app that you showed (like 90% of people)

At work we have a web app that uses graphql to communicate with AWS using JSON, including the server pushing updates to the client. I think in this case HTMX doesn't make sense anymore.

Why do you need another backend anyway? Just use an Excel table directly.

You obviously have never used Svelte or Firebase onsubscribe.

The idea is great, but as soon as php comes up, and then htmx, I was a bit disappointed. If you do frontend, you probably already know JS. But PHP is not something very common in that sense, so why add a huge language with a heavy framework on top of it? There's NodeJS, which you can use even without frameworks

And htmx, while still being an interesting concept, is a completely unnecessary additional complexity. Why should you learn how to use it if you already know JS? Also, it is an additional dependency that takes even more kilobytes than some frameworks (kilobytes = lines of code = complexity = slowness/bugs, but that's debatable)

Well, this is a complete backend vision. You’re not wrong, but if you build something complex that requires smooth transitions or dynamic elements being created at runtime you will end in so many problems and headaches. Separate your UI from your service has some great benefits, like caching, offline navigating and smooth experience, your users don’t want to wait your UI to fully loading to do something, and made things entirely on server is not good (if your server slows down, then your whole UI goes to be slower too)
Obviously you can write some js stuff to fix the points that I have quoted, but the maintainability of your code goes from hell. Again, you are not wrong, even if it’s you will do the maintenance and evolution, you cannot guarantee that you will do for the rest of your life. I’m not saying that the people must do overengineered products for a simple purpose, but making a very good, solid and resilient project will bring less problems in your life.

Why render the same HTML 20 times over when all that changes is some small amount of data?

This is only understandable if you care about functionality and not fancy design.

Reject frameworks, return to html

jQuery is dead. long live jQuery.

This is cool, but im wondering how about if a user filled the first form, but on the second form he leave, this will create unfinished data, won't it? or what if he did a typo on the first form, and want to correct it?