5R rifling? Some thought and info

I always think if whatever is in question is vastly better competitive shooters would be using it across the board, they're game requires keeping up with any advantages.

Odd grove numbers seem easier to tune your hand loads to

Mark is a wealth of deep knowledge, & that almost requires one to be a bit obsessive, so his wordiness is worth the time. :-)

my take is that after having three IBI 5R barrels fitted they shoot every bit as good as any other
these IBI barrels are a true "match barrel" and all of these barrels, a 6.5x284, 6mm dasher and 22 dasher like to use heavy for calibre bullets run very fast
as you said though Mark the salesman tries to make them something they are not and they are as good as anything else but l am not saying better, my smith did say that these IBI barrels are the straightest barrels he has ever had on his lathe, saying the first may have been a one off but they were all the same
the reason l went for these barrels was cost as l had rejected a couple of Australian barrels for problems shown with a bore scope and getting international made barrels was very expensive,
l paid $399 for each of these barrels and vouch for their authentic as a true "match grade Barrel"

Thank you Mark for this presentation on rifling. With rifling it is personal; one has to be happy with the results. If I remember correctly Mark the Smith & Wesson .357 Registered Magnums were always 5 Groove and 5 Land left hand twist; beautifully lapped workmanship. When I worked for John Martz the Luger carbine maker we mostly used 4 Groove and 4 Land rifling for .30 Luger while with 9 mm used 6 Groove and 6 Lands. Mark If you have access to the old .455 Webley automatic pistol it had an odd rifling that was radiused up to the land and was very well lapped. That brings me to another observation which is this; if you're going to lap the bore one needs to make sure that your final dimension on cutting or Hammer forging or button rifling has to be slightly undersized by certain amount so you can lap up to the final dimension leaving a very highly polished, mirror finish on the inside of the barrel.

Someone else may have said it, but I personally think the biggest benefit is the gentler angle of the lands (which can also help during cleaning "somewhat") but because when the rifling engraves onto the bullet it's less of a "cut" and a little more of a "squeeze or swage" which can (but is not guaranteed to) help prevent as severe of a loss of B.C. because any deformation of the outer jacket is going to impact your B.C.

Is it the difference between a good rifle and a bad one? No certainly not, but if it doesn't cost you anything extra (that will depend on manufacturer) then it's not going to hurt.

I like 5r and one company in the US that makes VERY affordable rifles uses 5r rifling and has actually built a really good reputation for accuracy that doesn't seem probable at their price: Ruger

I have a Ruger American chambered in 7mm-08 that can reliably shoot 1/2 MOA with good handloads which is amazing for a $400 rifle (the stocks suck so you'll want to upgrade that and there aren't tons of options, but the barrels are actually REALLY good)

And as for the "longer barrel life" with cold hammer forged barrels, that's "technically" true.

I have shot many more rounds through CHF AR barrels before needing to replace them when compared to cut or button rifles barrels. I say it's only "technically" true because I think powder volume and how "overbore" the cartridge you're shooting is. I think smaller more modest cartridges benefit more from CHF barrels than big magnums would

Thanks for all the rifling visuals which helps explain what each rifling profile looks like inside a barrel. As you said the different processes on how rifling is done, the grade of steel, forged barrel stresses, cut vs button rifling, annealing to correct the stressing in the forging process of the barrel’s steel. Also the hardness of the projectile changes the behavior. There are so many variables to consider that it can make your head spin, lol. It would take so many different variations of all these factors and would be extensive testing of so many combinations.

5R barrels are a marketing ploy. They are also just button rifled barrels. There is a barrel maker in Payson, Az, Schneider, that makes button rifled barrels that the major purchaser is the U.S. Govt. Hammer forged barrels, once upon a time, lacked the accuracy demanded by LR shooters. That has also changed! Now, not saying that factory hammer forged barrels can compete with custom built barrels in competition, but they make the rifles affordable, and have decent accuracy. Nothing beats a CUT rifled barrel. But we have to be willing to pay for the precision made cut barrels!

Well said! Thanks 👍🏾

Any idea how polygon barrels are made?

I've actually shot with Boots. I'm not sure what his real name is, or if anyone else knows what it is. The one thing I do know, is if he shows up for day 2 of an F-Class match, then bad things are gonna happen like high winds, storms, and it's gonna happen when you don't want it to. I thought the old guys were just giving him a hard time (he's an old-timer too), however, as he drove up everyone who knew him were like, "Oh no, Boots is back for Day 2. Lord, something bad is gonna happen. Anytime Boots shows up for Day 2, bad shit goes down." Sure enough, during Match 2, Relay 1 the heavens proved 'em right. It didn't stop blowing and raining for the rest of that match, then we had high humidity which made it impossible for anyone to clean any match. He's a really nice guy and very knowledgeable. There were several big names there for that one. Danny Biggs, Mike Francis, Boots, etc., etc. So cool to hang out with them and just chew the fat while picking their brains with all the weird questions I have. In all transparency, I prefer 3 grooves for 6mm target and 4-groove for 7mm to any other profile. I've shot 5R, 6, 3, & 4-groove. I have shot cut, button, & hammer forged. Button and cut are about the same in accuracy and precision. I've seen a little longer life out of button, and that may be due to several factors including how the button changes the structure of the steel there at the initial 0.1" of steel from the bore surface. Hammer forged no doubt causes the highest number of failures from a QA perspective.

Great info!

Is there more muzzle velocity possible with less rifling?

I have found that my greatest problem is me, I just need a lot more practice !!!

another excellent lecture! thank you

I think it more important on how well the barrel maker does his job than the number of groves

I like your general assessment: “a good barrel is a good barrel”. I don’t think anyone can argue that it’s the results that count. 👍🏻. And what better person to test them than a guy who enjoys hitting steel at 2k+ yds 👌🏻😎

Have a barrel manufacturer who will only do 3 buttons on 1:8 twisy for .270 - nice to know why.👍🏻I'm planning for 175 grain Sierras, and they call for 1:8 minimum twist.

Thanks Mark 👍

A good barrel is a good barrel, regardless if cut or button, or the number of grooves or the maker.........if it's a "hummer" it's to be treasured.

Firearm education at its best. I was hung on every word.

Would it be fair to argue that less lands also means less surface contact area hence less friction?

I heard (uh-oh, watch out!) that most chamber reamers have 6 cutting flutes and that when a 5 groove barrel is being chambered there will always be one land being cut with nothing on the opposite side to balance out the cutter. Thus, 5 groove barrels can (not necessarily will) have a small amount of chatter on the leade. 3, 4, or 6 groove barrels will always have their reamer cuts balanced out (geometry), so they don't suffer from this problem. Your thoughts, please.

Hi Mark
Boots Obermyer I think you’re referring to. He’s been around a long time as long as me I’m nearly 80 maybe more and had other barrel claims from way way back in several journals and also a mention I think in C S Landis book 22 Caliber rifle shooting which was what got me into high intensity centre fires in 1969

I always thought the 5R was a bit of a gimmick, no better nor worse than the 6 groove or any other type of rifling. Always look forward to and enjoy your videos!

Very interesting, thanks Mark! Cheers!

Have u ever studied graduated riffleing. Belanger barrels used too make them. I can't find any thing on them.

Quite a few militaries have tested hammer forged vs button cut. The conclusion was typically that hammer forged lasted longer if you trashed the barrels when they failed to meet military accuracy standards of 4-5 MOA. Most shooters will toss a barrel long before that; if they even shoot enough to wear a barrel at all. First 10k, at least, rounds not really a noticeable difference. Take that with a grain of salt, because I am referring to tests done primarily in the 1950's in NATO countries only.

Barrett "boots" Obermeyer was the barrel maker that made 5R popular.

Great information mate, keep the dream alive

Pleased can you make a vid over your way of cleaning a rifle barrel. Thanks for all your work and greetings from Germany, Toni

Thank you!

Every manufacturer needs to do this

I am wondering if 3 groves is a little like a 3 tooth chuck or a 3 leg stool, That they are self centering

Chris. This is not pert near it is the very best!

Hi mate, have you done a video on gain twist yet, I'd like to hear your thoughts, if possible?

As always a great video! Have a great day!!

Enjoyed the video and subscribed.

Thanks !

Mark, you said it all a good barrel is a good barrel, and a bad barrel is a bad barrel.
I have only one 5R rifle and it does shoot "yes ", I also have a match barrel regular
rifling does it shoot " Yes ". I guess I've been lucky, as I have never had a really " Bad "
barrel, once you find what it likes !!

All barrel makers survive on their products producing great results, sometimes it takes
just a little more money, sometimes it doesn't......Thanks.

It depends on which hemisphere you're in and which side of the international date line you're on I think.......

Good job Mark. Everything you talked about was spot on and presented in a thorough way everyone should hopefully understand. I’m glad you particularly touched on the differing of processes and materials in bullets, powders and barrels over the years with a common principal or goal if you will. I must admit I have a preference for cut barrels, but I have button barrels on some custom hunting rifles that are tack drivers. Well done.

First time I've come across the term "5R". Introduction and explanation with comparison in one very informative video. Brilliant 👌

Cheers

mark i'm after the shirt like you are wearing exactly the same colours ' looking for your merch link ?

I really love the no fuss common logic approach to your shooting setup mark.

There is far to much craziness out there at the moment with gear. It more comes back to how things work for you. Less is more sometimes
Just getting the basics down.

Sabatti MMR (Multi Radial Riffleling) is very good!

Two things, if I may:
I vaguely recall that the WW1 Springfield rifles were 2 groove and they worked really well for Sgt. York. 😁
Second, how do feel about gain twist for long, fast (3k fps+ mv) bullets?

Flow forming rifling is probably too expensive

Would love to hear you expand on your clean/light cleaning approach.

Thanks Mark very interesting session you answered a lot things I have Been wondering about for a long time , thanks again Steve .