Pathfinder (2e): Basics of Perception and Concealment

Question; are the flat check and attack roll 2 separate rolls or are they combined in one roll, as in it doesn't matter what the creature's AC is, a roll of 10 or less automatically misses undetected or hidden?

Let's be honest, the second the goblin stops being unnoticed, I'd fireball the room lol

Super helpful!

One thing worth mentioning is that the precise, imprecise, and vague, senses aren't necessarily consistent across all creatures, for instance wolves smell sense is imprecise rather than vague. Idk if there are any ancestries with a similar trait, but I'm sure it's not outside the realm of possibility.

I’m curious about the interaction between “Observed but Concealed” and “Has Cover”. Can someone explain more?

Absolutely wonderful explanations. Thank you so much.

Awesome video and series, it's been indispensable to me!

Excellent video. I'd point out that if the players are accusing the DM of cheating, there might be a lack of trust that needs to be addressed. That's why I roll out in the open most of the time (except for these types of secret checks). If your players trust you, they won't ever accuse you of cheating.

Great video!

Man. I'll admit, some of it feels very redundant.

What a great video! So many factors to consider, all throughly explained. Thank you.

Now you can check multiple times without metagaming
I try again more than once. I probably failed in my aproach if I don't find.

Probably the first thing in pathfinder I'm struggling to master but probably because 5e is so vague in comparison. Video is incredibly helpful thank you!

Took me a while to understand what a "DC 11 Flat check" was... it's literally just 50% concealment from 1E.

If you or your players prefer non-secret rolls, or at least having the players roll their checks, I find it acceptable to still not give them an outcome, but allow them to have confidence or lack thereof because of the number they rolled. For instance, when stabbing through a barrel at shrodinger's goblin, you do not tell the player if they fail the flat check, you do not tell the player if they missed, but you might tell them, you plunge your blade through the wood of the barrel with some resistance. You withdraw your blade from the barrel. They decide their own level of confidence based on their roll, and you might support that with small description differences. A higher roll might see your blade cut through the barrel with ease. A lower roll might be more of a struggle. A creature would have some level of confidence whether they hit it good or bad, but they would be unsure on the level of success.
Same with perception, you know when it's hard to hear or see something and when your senses are clear, but you don't know whether you were successful or not.

All the more surprising when you roll a nat 18, you're confident that you would've seen the creature of it were there, but it rolled a nat 20 stealth. >:)

In a situation where a creature has a higher AC than the DC for the flat check, makes me think that it could be weaponized by using a smokestick and just attacking at the cloaked creature, has anyone done this? What are the results?

I can't find a specific video about the concealment rule, the rule seems very very underwhelming. The rule days to make the DC 5 flat check before the actual dicerole. In other words: the first roll , if it's a 5 or less, doesn't even let you hit, but normally a rolled 5 would be too low anyways to hit, even if it was on your normal attack roll. This just doesn't make any sense. If you are level 20 and fight a concealed goblin, which you would critically hit on a 1 because of modifiers (1makes it a normal hit, but you kill it anyways), now all of a sudden 1/4 hits automatically misses.
Compare this to a boss encounter at any lvl. You mostly need to Roll really high,maybe 12+, so rolling a 5or lower on the flat check would have missed if it was your normal attack, but of you get a 6 on the flat check you can try again to get a 12, or maybe even a 20 for that sweet Krit. This just feels stupid, like it increases your odds against high lvl enemies which are concealed against you, but lowers the against low level noobs😂😂

Hello! Are the summary screens you put together available as documents? PPT or PDF maybe?

Very helpful, that summary tied it all in nicely. lol. wow! what a minefield. But I KNOW the minefield now. Schroddinger's Goblin, genius.

Awesome content!
Subscribed for more tutorials (^__^)

I have an issue that's been brought up after playing the fall of plaguestone AP with certain monsters senses that I was hoping you could clarify. If you are familiar with the bloodrack bushes in the AP you will have probably heard that they are meant to be blind with tremorsense (imprecise) as they're only listed sense so they wouldneed to roll flat checks to hit any PC's. However I'm reading that oozes have no vision (correctly listed) and have motion sense. Is motion sense an imprecise sense and should I have been treating my PC's as hidden in regards to black puddings and sewer oozes etc?

Would the Goblin have cover if he was hiding in the barrel?

This could pass as a Paizo official guide. You not only explain the rules but the meaning behind them.

Easily the best TTRPG guide I've seen

question about schrödingers Goblin: what if I grab, lift and then throw the barrel? or if I attack the barrel and not the inside of the barrel or even use a weapon, who would destroy it too, like with a sledgehammer?

How would it play out`?
I think the first one would be like, the gm tells you, the barrel is heavy or not. you may figure then out, if something is inside, but you can't tell if it's true, as it can be just like potato or the enemy is too light to be weighted too much. and if you throw it, you may destroy the barrel, damaging the goblin and revealing it or the potatos inside
by attacking the barrel, you don't need the flat DC check, as you can see the barrel, and if you destroy ir or break it enough, you may see the goblin or the potato inside
just not sure about the last one, as you would hit the barrel with yoru attack and sure will break it apart with a huge hammer, of course breaking/destroying thresholds are important here

I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to watch this one again later. It's great, but it's covering ground that is very complicated for a roleplaying game: just another reason to love 2e!

Great video and super helpful with the slightly obtuse perception (and consequently stealth) mechanics of the game! Tiny correction that doesn't truly matter as there can be an argument for the way you presented, but technically speaking hiding an object on your person is the Conceal an Object action, using Stealth, and not the Palm an Object action, which is more geared toward subtly stealing unattended objects (while the Steal action is geared toward attended objects).

That said, this neither ruins your point (they both go against Perception DC) nor is it entirely incorrect, as I could easily see a GM ruling a more active hiding of an object as Palming it. It's the difference between hiding a knife in your shoe and actively using manual dexterity to palm a card for a magic trick; I just wanted to leave a comment explaining the technical RAW differences of those actions, since I find them all interesting and often underused.

Hey, thanks for the video, very helpful. I'm new to PF2e and your content is helping alot! Thanks again.

One question: in that same scenario a goblin was hiding behind a crate, lets say a big crate, what would happen if the player used the seek action, but with the vision sense, and it rolled a sucess or critical sucess, even with thte goblin behind a big crate?? Thanks in Adv!

What happens if you crit-succeed a Seek Action with an Imprecise sense, when the thing you’re using Seek against is Undetected or Hidden?

They should have named Undetected "Unlocated" instead

Thanks again for great clarity. I would say personally from a language perspective using Unnoticed, Undetected, Hidden and Observed is a challenge in language. Especially if you then throw in Concealed as a condition that can apply whilst something is observed. Language wise the words Unnoticed and Undetected are very close. I know I will mix them up during a game unless I really concentrate. I may have used Unseen instead of Unnoticed, although I appreciate there are other senses or even Hidden to swap in instead of unnoticed. I am starting my 2e campaign next week and very enthusiastic about getting started, the players have also bought the rules which is a good sign they are keen to play. However this nuanced use of words and language feels wrong, even if I agree the mechanics make sense! :) I think my vote would be to change unnoticed to hidden and swap the current hidden word to obscured but I will adopt the rules as written of course.

Then you would have the chain of words in order of how noticed something is:

1/ Hidden. (Given that the first status is something players and monsters use as stealth to attempt to "hide", it feels like hidden would be a natural word used for the first status because you just attempted to hide and now you are hidden that feels logical use of language and everyone else is completely unaware the monster or PC is there)
2/ Undetected
3/ Obscured (replaces the word hidden because to me language wise it feels odd that you can know exactly where a target is whilst it is hidden, obscured feels more natural english to describe that you know where something is but it is obscured from view)
4/ Observed

GREAT channel. Thank you.

I don't know that this belongs here at all, but what happens when a character is either temporarily or permanently blinded? How do they then perceive, move, attack, etc....per RAW vs how you'd rule it? Thnx!!

great thnx

Schrodinger's goblin, I love it!

These videos are such a blessing! I'm currently preparing an adventure and I keep coming back to your videos to see how certain concepts work. Thanks so much for your fantastic explanations!

I would say that touch is a precise sense, but it doesn't have range. If you're in contact with something you can tell it's precise location (and also a lot of other details).

There's a pretty big argument amongst my 30+ year players and I. They say magic missile ignores the flat check for concealment. They say if they can see the target MM hits automatically.

While I WOULD agree the concealed condition states that everything except area affects are subject to it attacks, spells etc.

Help?

So...is it cheating if a DM doesn't role anything for a seek action and just tells you "there's nothing."
But a few moments later you're attacked by a kobold that was hidden in the area?

This is great and very helpful!

Schroedinger's Goblin (-;

Just sent this to my gaming group ... fantastic explanation.

This video was awesome. Thank you so much for making this!

Schrodinger's goblin - to hit or not to hit.

Awesome. You are great at explaining things!

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Superb video series. Ideal to share with your players before you run a game when they are coming from 5E and don't read :)