Elden Ring Lore | The Outer Gods

what about the men's sector what hess. do they heave ive there

The closest equivalent in Western culture to "Kami," as found in Japanese mythology, can be traced back to the ancient Greek concept of "Dæmons."
These entities, originating in early Western (though more accurately Near Eastern) culture, held a unique position in the moral spectrum. Unlike their later interpretation in Roman Judeo-Christian culture as sinister or evil 'demons,' the original Greek dæmons were not inherently malevolent. They existed in a state of moral neutrality, capable of influencing human affairs both for better or worse, depending on the context and the specific dæmon involved.
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Edit:
A lot of the "subcontext" in the Souls series are critisms of the West from an Eastern perspective.
Christianity has a history in Japan... but it's a highly criticized one. 😅
Elden Ring's "Greater Will" (is a stand in for the western Christian "God")... while Marika & Radagon are a Japanese critism of the western Trinity and also a Gnostic critism of the lesser role of the feminine in Orthodox Christianity (based in things like the Ghospel of Mary, Sophia, etc) hence the "secret twist" that Marika is Radagon... Marika "representing a feminine Jesus on the cross."
The "One Great" is a stand in for the Gnostic: Sophia, and includes another implied esoteric critism of the Western Christian "God" as the misguided Demiurge who "created a flawed Creation."
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Also "those who live in death" is a direct corruption of Order (undeath isn't life, it is a rejection of the natural order of Death and the birth of new life... refering to it as "Death" is a mistake/ misunderstanding/ mistranslation... we should call it "undeath" aka "the undead."):
Everything must die a "True Death."
=][= Deus Vult =][=

Ps. Using the termonology "Elect/ Elected/ Election" is wrong & Cringe... The Greater Will didn't/ doesn't "consider votes/ opinions," it Ordained/ Decreeded candidates (there isn't/ wasn't any support/ pataronage/ choice in the matter... hence Ranni's rejection and "plot/ scheme.").

Also... "Rot" is a part of nature, but it is made a point (in definition) that it is anathema to human life (otherwise it would be called decomposition and not rot). The Rot God is in direct opposition to all life but its own... I consider this "bad" because I'm a human. 🤣👌
lol... Also "Blood" is only important for Animalia life... Fungi & Flora don't have/need "blood." 😉

You know what? Screw you. Being from the west doesn't make you stupid.

Ayo kami in Elden Ring 😳

if you take the description of the blue fairy’s weapons literally then it describes a nox’s weapon. Plus, the hilt of scorpion stinger dagger looks as if it were made by the nox. Astel is also a scorpion that you fight near the dagger….

The blue fairy giving the blind swordsman a flowing sword could be meant metaphorical. The river itself could have shown him how to use a sword with motions that flow like her waters.

Axolotl

This was it the final piece of the puzzle I needed to actually understand

Maybe they are just called outer, just because It sounds more interesting that just plain gods, or maybe as an allegory to Lovecraft.
Also maybe the why of Miquella and Malenia having a curse, is because Marika took the rune of death from the elden ring, so in a world that has no death a way to bring equilibrium to it, it could be take something similar, as the Scarlet rot is close to death and that's why Mallenia was chosen as imperian, as with Miquella a world that doesn't age doesn't need death so that equilibrium is also sound, so maybe that's why they are chosen as imperian, so if one of them become a god the missing death wouldn't be a problem as in a world without death something has to ocupy that missing place, either the rot or timeless.

How about the God killing knife Was used to split the 2 fingers from the 3. And that's why knockron was banished

Feels like your leaning to far into it having to have strong Japanese ties just because its a Japanese game. They made a whole ass game with Lovecraft based lore also Lovecraft always made the Outer gods out to be more of an unimageable force with plans outside human understanding we are not their focus.

IMO, the land of reeds might be afflicted by both Blood and Madness. Since both warriors from Reeds we meet represent one of them.

Way too many adds, it’s not enjoyable to watch even though your content is lovely.

So of the three Empyrians, Malenia would be vessel of the God of Rot, and Ranni the vessel of the God of the Full Moon. But what God would Miquella be in service of?

these translation issues were cute in 2012, but it's increasingly silly after like 3 GOTYs in a row. they're not some plucky indie studio anymore - they can afford to do better.

A thought i had was that the reason the outer gods inflict suffering is the same reason illnesses spread among those not resistant.

The Outer God's dont intend to create suffering for humanity, its just thay humanity is not a component of their universe.

Honestly, Idc what’s right or what’s intended. I just want the coolest explanation.

Loved the video and it got my mind racing a it exploring new possibilities that come from the idea of the outer gods being closer to the definition of kami rather than that of God. An idea that came to my mind as I was watching the video is that rather than the perception of deities being tied to western mindset, it'd be actually tied closer to monotheistic religions since they do envision their respective god in the way you describe in the video, whereas ancient religions that correspond to nowadays myths, such as for example the Norse or the Egyptian myths, they had a deity in charge of or associated to a concept or multiple ones, i.e. Osiris being the god that represented death and resurrection. While it's not exactly the same as the concepts of kami mentioned by the translators, it was more or less how I viewed the relationship between the different forces of ER and I do still think that it can somewhat fit in this case as it does give them a more humane feel and also proposes that they can interact with their followers.
As a side note from this idea, I also felt like there'd be a need to separate two different phases or groups of deities so to speak, but rather than being the Greater Will and the Outer Gods as it's presented on the video and on the theories, in fact I'd think that the Greater Will is the same as the Outer Gods, another kami if you may. This is due to three things: 1. One thing that sparked my curiosity was something Hyetta says and that you showed during the video, which while it may not be the same on the Japanese version (I'd have to look it up), she speaks that everything originated from something called "the One great" and from it came "fractures, and births and souls", while also mentioned that the Greater Will had made a mistake and had borrowed something, most likely from this One great. This does remind me of how in Norse myths, Odin used Ymir's flesh in order to tailor the world, because he was using something not of his own to create something else and the original proprietor was someone from who fractures, births and souls all came from. This would then imply that, similarly to how there were older beings superior/different to Odin (besides Ymir) and other beings that were created at a similar time to Odin, there is or at least was something previous to the Greater Will, something older and maybe even grander, than it while there are also beings that are similar or on par with it. Plus, the fact that there could be something unnamed bigger than the Greater Will and the name of the later also do remind me of how Odin is known as the All-father while he himself was a descendant of Ymir from his mother's side. 2. From what we've seen and from what you and Ratatoskr mention, the Greater Will doesn't seem to care about the Golden Order at all, it only focuses and seeks in one thing, one specific concept which is order in the Lands Between. Maybe it's just on my end, but this really makes it seem as if the Greater Will was the manifestation of this very same concept, order, seeking that everything follows in an orderly manner, no matter what type of order is as long as it's order. And there is in fact someone who represents the "opposite" of order, at least in the way most people perceive it, that being chaos. 3. There's two interconnected things that at least from my perspective don't seem to fall under a specific deity and that seem to be bigger than the Greater Will but lesser to the One Great
At the end of the day, this are just some thoughts that were spurred on my mind as I watched the video and more likely than not it is just a bit of blindly attempting to dig a bit deeper into the lore, however it may be not as far-fetched as I'm thinking it is and it may be helpful in some way, so I'll leave it here just in case

Being honest I believe that the outter gods are able to take up the mantle. That all forms of life can rule it allows us to choose a path ourselves as the player. They only believe in one order but the greater will never stops the players choice. Only the built factions of those that follow those orders. So to me it becomes a life finds a way situation no matter the choice the world will either remain or be reborn.

The kami theory makes sense, but I find it disappointing because I’m always searching for cosmic horror.

Music at very start?

What Hyetta said is what they are, she states the great one made everything, but made a mistake making pain, disease, and other afflictions. So they likely removes those aspects from the equation of life, placing them outside it, hence why they have to have avatar for whatever aspect they represent.
And mogh being the avatar of the formless one, you don’t have to be an emyprean to be chosen by an outer god.

The moons arent outer gods, mainly because theyre not externalized by the current order.

At the beginning of this video it says spoiler warning but is it really or is it more an explanation of whatever the hell I just witnessed 😅

The Eastern people put the created before the creator,They worshiped only the physical part of nature but often dab into the spiritual part as a story goes on as they clearly state the great one in a few instances following the breaking up of a hand.With three fingers underground and the two fingers lingering around are surely the main subject,and have something to do with this particular story.Astel proves the universe and outer powers in this story.The whole who made who who made you.

Thesis: The Outer Gods are cosmic entities.
Antithesis: The Outer Gods emerge from nature.
Synthesis: The Outer Gods are both.

I am convinced the Outer Gods originated from the schism of the One Great and that they begin to manifest in the Lands Between after they send a meteor to crash into it, much like the Greater Will sent the Elden Beast to originate life in the Lands Between. Farum Azula was destroyed by one of these meteorites (possibly the one bearing the Fell God of the giants), and it's possible there are others, heck, it could even be that's how glintstone got to the Lands Between.

I'll go even further and suggest that maybe the natural principles introduced by these gods of death are what determine the order of the world after being bound by the Elden Ring: the Elden Beast is life, the god of the deathbirds is death, the Scarlet Rot is growth/change, etc. This is also why the Greater Will doesn't care about the Golden Order anymore: as long as they're bound within its concept of Order, any of these principles is suitable to create a new age, and that's what Empyreans are a conduit for. It might even be what the Elden Rings' runes represent!

In other words, the Greater Will stands sort of above the Outer Gods, having caused the fracture and introduced first the concept of order, then of life; the Outer Gods were born from the schism, but when they manifested (through meteors/falling stars) in the Lands Between, they were already confined by the Greater Will's concept of order, so their gods would only be allowed to reign if they also submitted to the Elden Ring.

The Frenzied Flame might also not be an Outer God in the traditional sense (after all, Miquella also wanted to remove the influence of the Greater Will, so unalloyed gold might also work on things that are above the Outer Gods), but a direct counterpart to the Greater Will; as such, it may have no place in the Elden Ring.

I think the Outer Gods could be both Kami and the Lovecraftian type if quantum superpositioning or omnipresence is a concept that exists in the Elden Ring universe because while they could just be naturally occurring forces in the world Elden Ring takes place in, in a separate dimensional plane of the same world, these forces could actually appear as the more traditional Lovecraftian type cosmic gods that manifest as the natural Kami forces in the dimensional plane the game takes place in.

In my mind when Hyeta talks about the one great being split I started to think of the outer gods as those fracture and the one great being the system that incorporate all others. Keeping up elden ring’s theme that power and order are only defined by those who wield them.

I'm more akin in the Greater Will IS a kami, a spirit of holiness.

Off topic im 1 min 17 secs in and iv had 3 adds already i don't have premium im also getting this on other videos any help at all or is it what the content creators have chosen to do

This video got me on a wild vein of speculation regarding a possible metaphorical message about the modernization and westernization of Japan in the 20th century. Not like that’s THE thing, but it seems like the kind of scale and abstraction that Miyazaki would pursue

Were does the fell god of the flame of ruin fit into this

if anyone has listen to the magnus archives this video will bring back some great memories as the hole thing with the fracture of the gods is very similar with the lore of the thing that was fear

I dont know how much I agree with the idea that the gods are supposed to be like ones in Shintoism, especially considering the lore was largely written by George R.R. Martin.

The life came with The Greater Will is a weak argument if you consider that the dragons, rather than holding a different version of the Elden Ring followed their own God. The war with them (and the giants) may have been a change of order and gods, but the dragons were on The Between Lands before the Greater Will reached it. And following the threaf, the giants god dont fit with the scheme on the video. If the god of Rot can be seen as the Lord of a New Order, possibly desyroying the Erdtree in the process, why destroy the giants? This show an erratic behaviour and doesnt fit at all. Rather than going for a Kami explanation (God of dragons and giants doesnt fit with the scheme of nature forces unless you take them as thunder and fire, not fitting well in the whole death and blood thing) id prefer the conventional one about gods fighting over control, which alone it's already too complicated alone, due to the lack of information available.

Mirko's argument is extremely weak. It essentially consists of the idea that because a work was written in Japan it can't have its intellectual grounding in broader world culture, which is obviously nonsense. From's games are shot through with western influence on a more than aesthetic level throughout. Tarnished Archaeologist has shown the very significant level of erudition in western cultures that have influenced Elden Ring. It's just a smug weeb position, basically, assuming that a surface level understanding of Japanese culture is more relevant than the very obvious influences evident in the game.

I don't believe Empyrean are chosen, Malenia's remembrance makes it sound like you don't get chosen to be one, you are born as one. "Both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans."

If the so called Kami are related to the Greater Will, then surely they would've been welcomed by the Erdtree as well.

Which leaves me one question lingering for some time: Why would everyone be in opposition to the Erdtree at the beginning, rather than after the removal of the Rune of Death, which could've been the start of exclusive practices?

Souls games are not japanese games, they are made by japanese studio, but they take inspiration from many different cultures: from roman to ancient greek to german and Scandinavian myths and tales, they make characters based on these stories and more, so you are incorrect in that sense. The only important thing that we should include is that the translation from japanese to english because as it was seen from number of times it can make a big difference. So, nobody should feel that the japanese playerbase has a better understanding of the games. And stating that these are japanese games and take their cultural inspiration for the most part from Japan culture is a false narrative and you are just trying to fit in your ideas to the game, not the game in your ideas. And a small notice about Outer: the allocation of this word to outer space is more of a pop meaning among normal people, in fiction and works of different types it is either out of our comprehension, understanding and our reach, or it is outside of the system either it be literal space, lands or dimension, or system of laws that they follow and operate in.

So how is the greater will not an outer god, if the greater will is an entity on the same level as the other outer gods, and ultimately exterior and only somewhat linked to Marika's golden order? If Marika is the "inner god" of the golden order, wouldnt that still make the greater will "outer" ?

Kami is pronounced 'CAR-ME.'

Kami are not mere forces of nature. They also have their own will and personalities

Or even how the crucible came before the elden beast landed in the land between with the crucible knights drawing power from it describing it as life and chaos close to the beguining of creation

I simply wanted to throw in there many different lore item descriptions talking about "gods" or outer gods old ones would serve such as the first elden lord of the dragon age dragonlord placiduisax ever so waiting for the return of his "god" which had to have left after the arrival of the greater will or what about the numerous talks of the old great tree beneath the lands between or even the crucible I don't think they spawned from the greater will and the elden ring but that they have existed within the universe and are all kinda grasping for influence in the lands between the greatest being ofc the greater will with his emissaries, the two fingers, his vessal the elden beast and his champions, Marika and the elden lord, even the death birds twinbird kite shield talks about the twin bird being the mother of the deathbirds and the emissary of an outer God in a time before the eerdtree

I like this vid, although I do somewhat disagree with you Smo. I've always felt the Outer Gods and the various other spirits and divines amidst Elden Ring, were simialr in scope to the Hellenistic gods. Beings whom are not manifestations of natural forces, but rather have coopted them as the symbols and influences for the power they've decided is theirs. Just my take thought. Regardless, spectacular video as always.

Love the video, and don’t want to sound condescending, but axolotl should be pronounced osh-oh-lot. It’s a Nahuatl word so the L at the end is silent if there is nothing following it

This is probably gonna end up in a random mess but here are my personal beliefs:

1. The outer gods are close to kami, but do have some sort of indescribable lovecraftian aspect to them, existing in some other plane. They exert force over the lands between from incarnations of their being (but not entirely, they still have force, only they need physical manifestations in order to communicate properly and strengthen their influence). e.g. Rot's scorpion, the Greater Will's Two Fingers, Death's Twinbird etc.

2. The Greater Will is not an absolute god. It is much like all the others, only it has more power and influence over the Lands Between.

3. In the time before the Erdtree, the time of the crucible, everything was in its primordial form, and the gods were no exception. As seen in Hyetta's questline and the cut-content Age Absolute ending, all was one. Before anything really happened the Greater Will was whole and the Elden Ring didn't exist, at least within the lands between. Point 2. isn't entirely true as I believe that during this time, the fingers were whole. Chaos and order together. The Golden Order was only much later, after the two fingers split and pruned the Elden Ring into its "ideal" form (as seen in Maliketh's boss room).

4. This is completely unrelated to anything in this video but it's a neat little tidbit I thought of recently and I haven't heard any clear reason why Melania marched south to fight Radahn: When the Elden Ring was shattered, many of the demigods fought for power or whatever. After no clear winner emerged from this bloody war, the Greater Will abandoned the demigods in favour of the tarnished, extending grace to them in hopes of just one of them becoming Elden Lord. Tarnished who are still believed to be worthy can see the guidance of grace which called them to the Lands Between, and this is linked to their immortality. My theory is that before being forsaken, demigods too saw these sacred golden rays. Thus, when Mohg stole Miquella from Melania, she was guided south, where Redmane Castle, Radahn still inside, was sitting directly above Mohgwyn Palace. Maybe Melania believed it was Radahn's fault, or Radahn initiated combat first, idk. I haven't memorised the complete order of events so maybe Miquella was stolen after the battle, in which case my theory on the guidance of grace still stands as Melania may have just been called there by grace for some reason. Or she was influenced by the rot god. Or both. Or even something else entirely.

:)