A Comment on Alex O’Connor’s Conversation with JBP - Do Adam and Eve Die After They Eat the Fruit?

@Jonathan the point on eating the fruit is that they’ll become mortal. Not that they’ll instantly die.

Alex is no celebrity atheist, he’s a serious thinker.

So you are interpreting the bible when you are not supposed to.

I do not believe in god and without evidence i never will.

"Immediately after the transgression, death struck the human soul and incurably infected the body. The body, the life of the soul, was not separated from the soul immediately after the fall; but the soul, the life of which is the Holy Spirit, immediately after the fall was separated from the Holy Spirit, Who abandoned it as defiled and poisoned by sin, and left it to itself.”
St. Ignatius Brianchaninov

So our main goal is to restore what we lost. And it's totally worth the effort. This is what our spiritual life is about.

the consecration for natural adolescence that all juvenile men experience involves them tasting the fruit and having their eyes open as they wake up from the dream where they get oniric experience with shame.

Death in this sense; as the fall, is not physical death but spiritual death. Up to this point there was nothing elemental. It was God: consciousness and his creation human consciousness. Now you have consciousness covered by mind which is elemental and by the physical which is grossly elemental on the earth rather than in paradise.

The Commenter is talking about physical death; the first death they experienced was spiritual death; that was followed by physical death once they were in physical bodies on a physical planet.

Eating the fruit is a metaphor for having sex. They were supposed to create by will as god did but they fell from that and lost their powers through being tempted by Satan which has been described as the feminine force or the weak force and were banished from paradise and lost all their powers and the ability to create by will alone.

Jonathan, I liked the way you described the struggle that we gained by choosing to sin.
Can I suggest another approach to explaining the death? Since God is The Way, The Truth and The Life (this also shows the planned progression towards divinity), isn't the fact that Eve believed the snake more than she trusted God (The Truth) a choice to separate herself from The Truth and from The Life itself? Isn't our death (sin) about our choice to break away from Life (God)?
Another interesting analogy appears to be: The Way is walking next to God in the Garden of Eden (initially, then in this life, wherever we are), the process of learning, developing, and discovering Him first, The Truth, then ourselves, towards eternal Life in His presence?

Adam has a naval? How? The painters didn't pay attention...

Yes, spiritually.

No just another fairy story like , socialism wake up sheep.

Christianity doesnt exist if they didnt eat the fruit.

I believe “in that day, you will surely die” is true and accurate: 1) In that moment, hey died spiritually 2). The death process began 3). If a day to The Lord is 1,000 years, and Adam live 930 years, that’s ~93% of a day to Our Lord. God Bless You All In Jesus Name.

You miss probably the most important point of this story, and that is that Adam blames God for what has happened. The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.” This shows a break in trust and, therefore, a break in relationship. And so the controversy becomes, can we trust God? That is the question that is answered by Jesus.

Let me make this very simple.
The death that Adam and Eve realized was a spiritual death. Death in the Bible is better understood by the word separation. Adam and Eve communed in the garden with God. When they sinned the relationship was severed. God is holy .
Sin cannot enter into his presence.
Man is a trichotemy. Body, soul and spirit. It is the spiritual part of us that is dead (separated)
So when Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened (made alive, restored relationship) who were dead (separated from God) in trespasses and sins.
This is why you must be born again. It is a spiritual rebirth. Death is the separation of the body from the soul. This is not the death that Adam and Eve experienced. It was spiritual.

Let me make this very simple.
The death that Adam and Eve realized was a spiritual death. Death in the Bible is better understood by the word separation. Adam and Eve communed in the garden with God. When they sinned the relationship was severed. God is holy .
Sin cannot enter into his presence.
Man is a trichotemy. Body, soul and spirit. It is the spiritual part of us that is dead (separated)
So when Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened (made alive, restored relationship) who were dead (separated from God) in trespasses and sins.
This is why you must be born again. It is a spiritual rebirth. Death is the separation of the body from the soul. This is not the death that Adam and Eve experienced. It was spiritual.

Amazing insight

1

Excuse me, do only I think that I'm very stupid after Jonathan's videos? Because I don't understand anything! I really try, I'm an orthodox christian since I was born but recently I've started really dive deep into theology and all these things. But to be honest, I understand just a very little part of it!

Adam lived 1,000 years. He started to slow down at 900 years so he did ok. Eve was kind of forgotten about for some reason so who knows how long she lasted.

Thoughts;
1. Does this mean time doesn't exist except as a human attempt to impose order on the true reality of change?
2. If we cannot see bad from the position of good ('natural distance from a given purpose') then why can we understand that a bird makes a bad chair? Is there a problem with the original analogy, or is there a paradox/mystery lurking in there somewhere?
3. If we have knowledge of good and evil as a consequence of the fall, why does solomon ask for it? And what does the difference of knowing good from bad - when it is taken vs. when it is given by God - look like to us? Is the latter what we would call theosis?
4. Would you consider doing s video on the life of Christ from beginning to end with all the patterns he is taking part in, including his being given the knowledge of good and bad and then partaking of the tree of life, or would this not be useful to the average viewer?

God bless your work

Also, what does it mean of the word enmity. In reference to the relationship between th

Also, humans were not created from dust. Humans are created from genetic and DNA compounds of chromosomes. Not dust

So evidently God didnt know the " serpent " was there in thr garden nor knew that the "serpent " would tempt Adam and Eve.
Right?

So good. ~

good video

Great way to explain how the world works. Thanks

Takatou Yogiri's metaphysics are authentically Christian lmao

Perhaps by applying Oneness and Duality together we can perceive the ‘serpent’ as the dark side of God’s creation - it’s part of the creation to allow Adam and Eve’s ‘choice-making’. Allowing choice-making makes the Christian God a loving God.

Alex is very talented, he’ll become a great thinker. I’ve been a listener to your channel for some years, great contents too!

The Dust part was wonderful

I think what immediately died was the image of God in us amd that began the corrosive process of the death of humanity until the promise of Jesus is fulfilled ?

Alex did indeed do a great job. Nailing word salad meister Jordan Peterson down to a definite statement about anything at all is a definite achievement. I suspect that JP's way of comforting a person grieving over the death of a loved one would be to say: "It depends what you means by death."

I think phycology has something that indirectly supports this which is called the milk carton rule.

I've always tended to think of death not just of being dead but also as the process of it and the fallen world as a whole.

God made for them coats of skins to cover their nakedness. Death did happen, but it was the animals death in their place. This was the introduction of the sacrificial system & the act which is finally fulfilled by the death of Christ in our place. God didn't lie. Death was paid by the animals on that very day.

No matter the falsehood written, reinterpretation can convince someone it wasn't false. Yet it is false. It's untrue. It's not truth. So I feel just by abandoning the meaning of "die" (reinterpreting it to mean something symbolic, or really anything other than the obvious meaning of "die") just feels like going out of one's way to pretend a falsehood is truth. (Very Jordan Peterson, in other words.)

Each person gets to decide if truth matters to them.

Does that mean I never enjoy symbolism, allegory, or fiction? Of course not. I love those things. I just don't pretend they're truth.

I have thought sometime that the "Satan" when he makes an appearance in the testament. Doesn't "Lie" he bends the truth to "Deceive". Lying is a human tactic for momentary advantage. The Satan is in for the "Long Game". The lie will always be there waiting to be revealed. Satan is far too subtle to leave it open.

Yes. Death is always separation.

Physical death is separation of your body from your spirit.

Second death is separation from God for eternity

Resurrection is the body and spirit coming back together.
Remember when Jesus raised the little girl, the text says “and her spirit returned to her.”

In the story of the prodigal son, when the son returns home, the father says , “ my son was dead, but he is now alive again.” He was alive because he was back home, and their relationship was restored.

how come they have belly buttons?

I understand why you get frustrated when you are called out on twisting the story.

It is telling you leave out "And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 

So even without eating from the tree of knowlegde of good and evil they would die.

If there is any thruth in Genesis 3, it is the notion that nature, the fruit, made us human, not god.

Eating from the fruit, the gained knowlegde/being able to reason morality, is what set us apart from the other animals.

Was shaking my head at that entire discussion, someone tap in Fr Damek!

Hi brother, I just found your channel from Ruslan KD covering your debate with Jake Newfield, thought it and this video were excellent. Im kinda taken aback though, Ive been an artist my whole life and am finding it refreshing and its also kinda freaking me out how similar we think. When I found Norman Geisler it blew my mind, with books like Christian Apologetics, Philosophy Of Religion etc as it was so different from how I normally thought prior to that. Ive tended to mix it/thomism with a creative vantage point that I believe Ive seen lacking within christian scholastics. There are only a handful of those in christian apologists/philosopher circles I know of with an art background, only Brian Godawa comes to mind right now, I wonder if that's why I find similarities between how you and I think about things. I don't have much respect for the work of Atheists, especially new atheists, but Alex is my favorite Atheist personality, so it's cool to hear you like him too. Liked and subbed btw, only seen these 2 videos but am looking forward to seeing more. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us all.

👍❤

Very interesting stuff on death. I've been thinking about this for many years - that is, death being more than just a biological event but also a gradual decay. Never thought about it in terms of multiplicity and unity though.

My interpretation of the discussions between Alex and Jordan is that Alex simply wouldn't let him weasel his way out of these basic questions everyone wanted to know.

These concepts are pretty poetic and can surely be applied to the text in 2024. But did the original authors of the Old Testament mean this whole 30 minute explanation of what death means when they wrote "death"?