Warhammer: The Old World, What Lore Has Changed, Part 3, w/ Loremaster of Sotek and Andy Law

I am gald you guys took a brake from the Old World it is hard to watch you guys be so negative about something we all love i understand your passion is what driving it but I wish it was a calibration of what they did well because no peace of creative work is NEVER perfect for everyone!!!

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Fantastic discussion! Been a joy to listen to as I paint up my Waaagh!

I don’t suppose you’ll read this months late, but I don’t think making human civilizations older than potentially the dwarfs and the elves even is a rewrite at all. It’s been stated years ago, at least in certain editions iirc, that humans were kicking around in the warhammer world when the old ones arrived. They were crappy tribals at best if not some more bestial pregenerative form, but they were there, and the old ones used them and molded them into something else that we have now, particularly stating that they gave them a crash course on how to do things on Albion before leaving.

Drachenfels said it himself that he was a human from before the old ones arrived and I always LOVED that and thought it was fascinating because it makes humans deeper and more mysterious. It even calls into question what a true unaltered human would even look like, and how they could survive in a frozen dragon dominated world before the old ones.

It’s far cooler and more interesting than using the same backstory for every race as a creation of the old ones made from nothing, and makes me as a fellow human feel a greater pride in my warhammer counterparts for being cool and ancient

Kislev would be a good sell for the old world

Damn right Andy. While not quite what you meant, I didn't realise I was trans for basically a decade longer than I should have because I never felt like I was allowed to discuss it. Any discussion on the subject that wasn't from the perspective of someone who was already openly trans tended to get dismissed as being confrontational and it left me feeling resentful and alone. And it took me so much longer than it should have to start really thinking about this. Because I didn't already know the right lingo and I'd grown up having some bad experiences with people that left me feeling like I didn't belong. I encourage people to talk about this stuff, because when the conversation is dominated by backwards individuals and people are assumed to be backwards, it does real harm. I didn't know or understand the right terms, and it cost me a decade. How many people have lost more than that because we're afraid to be intellectual about this subject?

Brilliant videos. But I have a question. I watched the whole part 1 and part 3 but I cannot find part 2

You guys are awesome! Watched every episode and no plans on stopping!

THey don't say that Ostankya is the only Hag Mother ever. They say that in the era of Karl Franz that she is the only one. So there may have been more of them, but their numbers were culled. There is a story to tell there.

great episode! always having blast listening to Lorebeards on my 65 inch tv! (to bad its basically impossible to chat on it, even though you can see chat)

I think your final summary is overly prescriptive regarding what the book 'should' have covered. It does need to do what any WFB or WFRP core book has done, and introduce the factions present in and significant to the setting's history. The Slann story was in WFRP and editions of WFB before the 5th Ed. version of the Lizardmen even existed, and in other editions without playable Slann. I think its role is so pronounced here mainly because there's so much more existing lore about that part of the setting's history than there is about the Old World in the 2300s. It looks odd with the foreknowledge that they could have made Lizardmen a focal faction and chose not to, but I don't think it presages any intent to revisit the Lizardmen - they've been fairly firm that they don't want to focus on stuff that's already well-supported in Age of Sigmar, Chaos aside.

The book also needs to go into more detail on the histories of focal factions than the Old World's particular setting and time stamp might demand, since they aren't getting any lore in army books this time round.

While I agree GW won't go the multiverrse route with WFB, Blood Bowl is definitely an alternate version of the Warhammer World rather than a distinct setting that uses Warhammer factions, unlike Talisman or Heroquest - it has timelines, that extend to Karl Franz's era, with the same named background characters (and in the case of Scylla Anfingrimm, actual game characters), as well as the same geography.

So, in summary, the second half of the book amounts to "Buy more elves!", and the first half amounts to "Buy Lord Kroak!"

I may be misremembering, but I think I recall a Warcom article mentioning that Kislev was larger 'in this time period', suggesting that the intent is indeed to reduce it to its 'modern' size either as a direct result of the war or as a more gradual deterioration between the two time periods.

Also the sentry forts are an older idea - if Bill King didn't come up with them they existed as far back as Daemonslayer, and a subplot running through the early Gotrek & Felix novels focused on Ulrika's father warning of a coming Chaos attack after his sentry post was overrun.

The only thing I sort of like here is the confirmation that Ind of Khuresh still exist in the lore, but I don't think they'll ever commit do fleshing them out as full-fledged factions... and with that quality of writing and overall erosion of creativiy it's probably for the best.

4.8k; queek headtaker is near...

5k subs coming in hot! Great job as always boys

I just got to the magic part and im confused. I like the interpretation that the elves just cobbled up a solution that spilled coloured winds through the cracks but it seems to imply that they are all generated by the Vortex which doesn't make sense considering Azyr most definitely existed at the birth of the dragon emperor and still does in Age of Sigmar. If anything it sifted through the winds of magic and helping them to divide into each from the sum of their parts (ie high and dark) but still confusing choice. Wording more than anything else.

Comments for the Algorithm gods !!! thanks lads.

also, with a spell like Flaming Sword, clearly being just Flaming Sword of Rhuin, isn't Ruin after the oldworld setting? so what, are they just going to rename the spell that's existed for forever for a single dude instead of having the spell be because of him? seems like lazy reuse of assets.

Imo, there's a lot of reasons for High Magic and Waaagh! Magic to be in the core rulebook. For one, High Magic is available to two factions (High Elves and Lizardmen). For another, you've got items like the Wizarding Hat that can give you spells of any full Lore of Magic. But mostly, having all of the full Lores of Magic in the core rulebook is good for consistency and helps future proof for later Arcane Journals.

edit: Ah, you eventually covered the Arcane Journal angle.

Gender isn’t fluid. Can wokeness not ruin another IP. Good stream again though 👍👏

Im a bit confused about this they obviously put some effort in writing this but still make some mistakes and rlly weird decisions like wtf did the learn nothing or was this a task for a practicant and they said fck it ?

I feel that argument about Kislev being fantasy Russia as a bad thing is quite naive. Kislev is the most played Realms of Chaos race in Warhammer 3. Everyone is totally ok with that, because modern Russia has absolutely nothing to do with what Kislev is based on.

Now, is it unfortunate and maybe in poor taste? Sure! Because Kislev could've been it's own thing rooted in the mixture of Slavic nations and not have every second unit being a bear.

But EVERYONE knows that Kislev is basically a fantasy Russian Tzardom with sprinkles of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Names of characters, places, items, units, stylistic choices for all of the above AND clearly Orthodox Christianity inspired (but pagan) religion... and then the sheer amount of stereotypical bears and snow made sure that the first and last association is Russia. And someone maybe recognizes that the Winged Lancers are the cool as hell throwback to Poland.

And it's not going to change if Kislev Tzar is called Alexei Romanoff or not. It's just a silly choice compared to the likes of Boris and Katarin Bokha. And also exposes strange lack of creativity in GW in this regard. Also, why the hell is it a Kingdom if the ruler is a Tzar? It should be Empire or Tzardom.

5.5k views on this video. 4.78k subs. Something doesn't add up here. Come on people, just over 200 subs from 5k!! You can do it!!

Anyway, love these videos/streams!

I FEEL that, Andy. The painting and the modeling will be rough on me but I'm gettin' stuck in.

Another Great Lorebeards! Keep up the great work!

I would love to see these things about gender and new human cultures in AoS. But please not in the Old World, dont turn it into a Netflix thing, no imagination, keep it traditional, keep it dark, it is even more weird and strange in the world we live in rn. AoS would be perfect for these new perspectives to be introduced, i would rather take a Romanoff, you can always turn him into a bastard chaos dude at the end...And btw, you already have Slaneesh

Just for info guys, I was in Warhammer World on saturday. There were a dozen or so boxes of Tomb Kings and lots of boxes of movement trays, but nothing else. So the old world is selling well.

Surely the 'Fury of ' spell should alude to the most furious thing/being that the caster has seen. So Fury of Gotrek would be unusual, and might get you into trouble, but definately possible.

sigh Sotek, I have been here since the beginning of Karak Eight Peaks Week, I will believe in Queek when I see the video. My heart has been broken too many times ;)

I love this guys, but i must admit, i always find strange that people from US and Britain are so shocked when they see some country invade some other country. I mean, entire history of those two countries is based on that

Andy if they wanted historical inspiration for Kislev just search for rulers of the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth for inspiration, an obscure part of east European history which no one would have hung anything on in the real world.

It is a great point about the Romanovs. If the lore starts to resemble real life too much a lot of people will be put off by it and others will use it in different political context. What I absolutely love about Warhammer is that it is a fantasy setting and I can dive in and forget about real life politics and stereotypes. I want to play all the factions (Total War) witouth feeling emotional that I am participating in encouraging some hidden agenda. Everybody should be able to enjoy te awesomeness of Warhammer

Very nice video, I enjoyed it. You both are doing amazing job. I love the channel.

Almost 5k subscribers! Nice!

I wonder if Games Workshop might have looked to Bulgarian history for inspiration in regards to Kislev being a kingdom ruled by what is in our world the equivalent of an emperor. Historically Bulgaria was known as the Tsardom of Bulgaria, but when translated to English it was frequently referred to as the Kingdom of Bulgaria. The title of tsar in Bulgarian did not hold the same imperial connotations as it does in Russian and just about every other language in Europe; to the Bulgarians it simply meant king.

Also, Romanoff is the literal translation of Romanov from Russian to English.

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i do honestly believe the reason GW is so involved is that they realized how many people got introdused to fantasy thru total war and probably realized how many see total war as completely cannon and they really need to be involved with it.

I'm happy to say Lorebeards have become a highlight of my week. The knowledge, insight and passion for the setting between the two of you makes for a wonderful time and makes Warhammer that much more fun for all of us to enjoy. I really can't thank you both enough!

I will also say, I appreciate you calling out some of the unfortunate implications of things like the family name of the Kislevite rulers. Plenty of people try to turn Warhammer into something it's not, and under no circumstances do they need any more ammunition. Warhammer should never be political. At most, it should be inspirational and empowering like any good hero's tale.

I think trans people in the grim world of warhammer is just cringe. And using Magic’s to justify it makes sense but what dose it not?😂

GW: "Change it cause Marvel." (Malerion)
Also GW: "Take it cause Marvel." (Romanoff)

I know your Podcasts are rarely exclusively based on Total War, but I would enjoy it very much if you two could delve into the lore of the new units and characters coming in the next update for a short ammount of time, once they are all revealed with their lore quotes.

To be honest, I mostly ask this because I really enjoy the new Moon Bird and how they seem to literaly NEST ON MANNSLIEB ITSELF. Thats some crazy new moon lore that I really love, just like the moon empress.

ANOTHER THOUGHT: In a previous stream you revealed that the new lore suggests the Old Ones intended the world to fall to some degree in order that the Mortal Realms would go on to be created. But the Mortal Realms’ creation seems dependent on the winds, which suggests the Old Ones needed a means by which high magic could be unwoven into its constituent threads first… Could it be argued that this effort on the part of the elves was therefore part of the Great Plan? That the Old Ones perhaps created the magically attuned elves FOR this purpose? That it would have been beyond the slann somehow; and perhaps therefore beyond the Old Ones themselves? Or perhaps the Old Ones would have unwoven the high magic themselves given enough time, if the Great Catastrophe hasn’t occurred? The mind boggles

Random thoughts; could the change to the Winds of Magic in some way explain how the dawi are no longer able to craft the truly ancient master runes of old, or be in some way responsible for certain runes falling quiet or draining off faster? More generally, how might the shift from high magic to splintered winds impact runes designed and manufactured to be empowered by high magic?

Thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you. More more more more no break no break no break !

Thanks Gents. Love ya work.

I'm finally trying to work on my passion to write fantasy and in the middle of world-building and theorising the history of it all. It's not your high-fantasy, magic-filled world like Warhammer is and probably not nearly as complex, but I cannot express how tremendously helpful it's been listening to you both and all of your commentary, likes & dislikes about new & old lore, things that fit or don't etc. It's really helped me take a critical eye to my ideas and recently while writing I had that 'aha' moment where a number of things starting feeling like they were naturally slotting into place and my world feels altogether more 'real' now. A long way from complete, but I'm much more sure of where I'm going.

I'm so glad you and Sotek partnered up for these streams. You compliment each other really well.

When I subscribed to both lawhammer and sotek, my sinuses cleared up immediately. Asthma was still present. Not sure any of that is related but it might be?