Analysis: Why Fighting Games Are Hard

crazy how years and years later SF6 very literally uses the extra credits idea for teaching people when to look out for wiff punishing.

First fighting game for me was SF4, so opening with Zangief lariat spams has a special place in my heart.

Then got into online play as Ibuki in SSF4, but didn't have anyone to play with consistently, so fell off.

Getting back into it with some buddies and my brothers, playing Strive.

"Then in order to improve, you have to watch yourself losing all over again in a replay to find out what you did wrong."

That's a huge problem right there. When the systems in fighting games are so cryptic and opaque to the player that you need to meticulously analyze a replay frame-by-frame just to start understanding what went wrong, there's a fundamental issue with the conventions of the genre.

Games are supposed to be fun but everything about fighting games is breaking down replays, memorizing frame data, learning mechanical inputs that are intentionally made inhumanly difficult to do reliably, and a host of other tedious chores just to become competent.

Every other genre (except arguably racing games) has adapted to modernity, but fighting games remain firmly mired in conventions laid down in 1990.

It almost feels like modern controls were in answer to this video.....but that would imply the channel is responsible for modern controls....and you just don't do that to a brother.

I hate smash bcz i play it eith my friends and i mained bowser🦖 and everyone at my locals knows how to play PIKACHU me duded

No one wants to read a manual to learn to play a game. Fighting games are not only filled to the brim with complex inputs and combo's, but also mechanics that are not intrinsically clear such as grab cancels (that is unless your a fighting game aficionado). Even the most basic of basic actions such as ducking and jumping have massive depth in that they can be effective tools... in the right moment... in the right hands! But to get to that point a player not only has to master his characters moveset (which can be massively long and complex) and know in what situations to use those moves in. They ALSO have to KNOW the ENEMIES MOVE SETS and sometimes even behavior. Oh i can duck and counter here in a single 10th of a second??

the community is the problem, agreed

Seems like there easy to speedrun but than again ive been playing them for over 20 years and not as many people speedrun as much as other games

If you can’t think through learning a character, you won’t be able to graduate from easier gameplay, you’ll just want the hard stuff after it’s already easy to be easier and so on? DONT turn our fighting games into idle 1 button fighters that you pay for combos and points to play 10 more time today if you buy it.

Auto combos are already the simplest way and many fighters have them. You’ll feel good the first few matches then realize you ain’t doing shit but mashing the same button instead of multiple and right back at square one. You don’t want to improve, you just want to win and not see others do things you can’t.

So you spent 8 minutes to convey “skill issue”

TBH I think the hardest thing about fighting games is the control schemes =/ no matter how much I tried, i just could not get the rotations or z or whatever to work. but in smash likes- I really enjoy playing and am decently good because I can actually land my abilities.

Fighting games arent hard they are impossible for some people. Me included i quit. Congrats everyone for making it look easy, getting my hopes up then crushing my enthusiasm. The fgc has one less person now.

Didn't expect to see Misha Mansoor

Nah. The best tutorial mode that had players eventually play with every character was Soul Calibur and Soul Calibur 2. Also Soul Blade did a great job. Those games taught you every damn thing. Air combos included. And how to win in dire situations and what not. Not even Street Fighter 6 gives me that.

Once in a while I get this great desire to get into street fighter and then instantly get discouraged when I see those command lists

This man Said "See you after Street Fighter 5 comes out"

I’m confused. Why are you stating sales when talking about the lack of tutorial modes? That fact is irrelevant

My headcannon is that this one vid is the reason Riot bought RT to make project L

For me the hardest thing is both the information overload, then remembering the inputs... then getting confused as to why the move didn't come out...

The biggest barrier for me is simply not getting that feeling of satisfaction when I do win, even from a tough situation. It's one that no veteran I know has been able to give me advice on as of yet either, considering that's one of the biggest incentives to get people through difficult games.

Here from Street Fighter 6, and the single player tutorials seem like they got the idea from the creator you mentioned

Im no programmer but a system like in Forza Horizon where the game learns your style and has the AI mimic that could really help pull Arcade mode to be more challenging. If arcade was a challemge its all Id do. Give it the playstyle of high skill players but assuming the AI would fail to perfectly match up it hopefully would result in AI cjallenging but doable

How is extra credit good in every other topics but so bad in video game related topics?

IMO the best way to learn a fighting game is going to training mode and learning a combo, if the game hot challenge moded where they touch you a combo, learn one, to the point you can do it by muscle memory then try to do it in matches whenever you land a hit, if you can combo even a bit, you can get chunks of life off your opponent, I usually spend like 30 minutes in training trying to perfect that combo, also in SF6 you can set the training mode to show you a color when you can cancel an attack by a super art or a special attack, so you can try combos you made up & see where then branch, which variation deals more damage or regen more gauge, it's easier to do a combo you made yourself rather than a preset for the game imo

Idk if naruto storm is considered a fighting game per se, I'd actually classify it as a really stylish rock paper scissors (dash beat mashing, mashing beat guard, guard beats dash) game but I loved naruto so much I didn't care about loosing and spent days doing only friendly matches, playing any opponent, even the deidara, I accumulated so much experience from this I became really good at the game, I stacked maybe 1700L a 400W, at this point, I couldn't even loose, when I dropped the game I had maybe 2200W and didn't break 500L, never played ranked either but I could rank really high, when storm 4 came out, I bought it to play with friends and basically steamrolled them

In more classic fighting games, it's harder to just get it through losses because some fights might NOT teach you anything, if gladly replay someone stronger than me in SF6 just to figure out his game plan somehow but if I'm playing a boring spamer or someone who reads me like a book, I can bet none of us is having fun

RTS is harder than fighting games.

Hearthstone and MTG Arena are also 1v1, but in their case, we blame the randomness. The same for Smogon Pokemon (Pokemon moves have the accuracy, so eventually you'll miss). To be honest, my journey in these three games was very enjoyable, even though I lost a lot, I returned to one point to a ranking that I could win. The problem with fighting games is that we usually don't have this point. As beginners, we lose a lot even in the lowest of the rankings. So it's a vortex, few players cause this disparity in level, which causes frustration and you have a situation with even fewer players available. The only genre more unforgiven is RTS, such as Starcraft 2.

Just lost online 12 times in a row on SC6 online. Only need 1 win for trophy. So frustrating.

The only my fighting game I can’t play is fucking tekken 😂😂😂😂😂

When you see that SF6 made everything this video proposed, it's amazing. The best Fighting Game of all time

I recently rediscovered tekken (the last time I played was Tekken 3 when that was new) And I found joy in learning. I think having options there is good to people ne to the genre, but to veterans (Me being a Street fighter player) being able to skip to learning combos is important.

When I taught my cousin to play smash he said grabbing was cheating, so then I decided grabbing is all I would do until he learned that its not that bad

I think the hardest thing for me is the inputs for combos and the tiny amount of time i have to put them in

Playing online should teach you how to get better, but the game should teach you enough by itself in it's pve modes to learn how to play the game, and just training or trials doesn't cut it, especially in today's environment

I’ve seen this video so many times

If u play mortal Kombat and lose to someone the thought of seeing ur character die is the hardest part

I think you have to realise: a lot of people just want to ENJOY fighting games, not get to a high level. For the vast majority of us, we already know we aren't going to get to a high level. I do not have the ability to time a move to one God damn frame, or even three. I have no interest in fighting online against other people, because I'll never be good enough. It'd be just nice to have some brawlers that you could make some kind of progress in playing casually, that taught you how to play organically rather than having to 'hit the lab' or watch endless videos. The idea of someone watching a recording of themselves to see what they did wrong is utterly absurd unless you are getting paid SERIOUS money to compete.

My take: You need a completely different genre of fighting games. The current genre is a professional sport. It's basically speed chess, or Super Complicated Real Time Strategy at Lightspeed. It got this way because of the success of SF2. That was so popular huge numbers played it, then it became a professional sport. The genre kept adding more and more technical aspects to develop it for professional style players. That's fine. It just makes it absolutely impossible for anyone else to enjoy the game. They look like fun, but they are the opposite of fun. They are a job, a chore that you have to do. There needs to be a new fighting genre that is single player focused, is more like real life street fighting without over the top, garish visuals that gives you that feeling of being in a real, tough fight and not a cartoon.

This is my experience of fighting games today, as a player who used to enjoy SF2 way back when I had friends to play with and time to learn. I play the game, look at the command list..it's as long as the bible. I realise I haven't got the equivalent of 16 years to learn the game in the limited time I have to play. I learn a couple of simple special moves. I play the CPU, I button mash. Have a bit of fun grinding it out against the easiest CPU opponents. I'm quickly reduced to one move...a kick because grabs never work, punches have no range and I can't get specials to work even if I know the move, they just don't activate. After I've fought a few CPU opponents and beat them with the only move I have available, the kick....I will come upon an opponent who just rushes me and destroys me within seconds. As none of the other moves work other than kick, I try a few times to defend or jump over their attacks and get my kick in, get to a point I realise it's pointless, then switch off forever. Upset that I can't enjoy fighting games, because they would be my favourite genre if they were possible to play, but they can only be played by young people with a lot of time on their hands who are willing to literally do homework and study to learn a skill with no use whatsoever.

Extra Credits:
"Fighting games should teach the player the fundamentals of getting good through gameplay."

Core A Gaming:
"No, if they do that, then the ones who learn through training against opponents won't feel as special."

Me:
"Wait, how is that an argument?"

Cora A Gaming:
"Moving on..."

I think Extra Credits is right that single player is the right way to introduce new players to the game and widen the playerbase, but their idea was really hamfisted. Can't remember what video it was in, but Brian_F pointed out that playing your first fighting game is such a different experience for most people than anything else they've played, to where it's like they're piloting a new body. Having a safe space (for want of a better term) to figure that out and to actually start playing the game is important, and something a lot of fighting games lack, at least meaningfully. You can also include tutorials and practice for things like motion inputs, high/low blocking, etc, but make them more gamified instead of just dry tutorials.

The other thing I'd want to see in a fighting game is a robust source of information and demos of advanced concepts -- I actually think Guilty Gear Xrd and Strive do this really well with Mission Mode. Not everyone who plays the single player for a fighting game is going to turn into a multiplayer fiend, and it's unreasonable to think otherwise. The goal should be to take people who got hooked by the single player and give them the tools to advance as a player inside the game itself. Stuff like Frame Data, advanced system mechanics (think FADC or Roman Cancels), and a glossary all inside the game. The community has a massive amount of this info already (Infilament's glossary, Dustloop, etc) so anyone who wants to find it can, but you also have to know where to look. Integrating it into the game would lower that barrier and make it easier to start thinking about what you're doing. The only concern I'd have is making sure it's presented carefully. It's easy to present information overload.

they are not hard, they just have bad netcode and stupid systems that cant register inputs correctly

I don't know if it's worth commenting under a seven year old video but I feel like it's necessary.
Classical fighting games have a high skill ceiling not only for their fast pace and multiple options but more for the extreme amount of features the developers build in and veterans of the play are aware of. Killer Instinct, King of Fighters, Shadowstalker, heck even Tekken are pretty niche Titels compared to the old days of the arcade and early home console era. Back then the features existed to give players something to discover for they 20 cents and hooked them to spend more. But 30 years later that amount of features got to a point were it burdens new players. My friend played Mortal Combat for a long time and he still needs to pull up the help section because there so many inputs and commands for special moves.

Super Smash Bros is one of the highest grossing fighting games because it gives a great mix between a causal experience for newcomers, supported by the cast, and a high skill scene for pro players. And even these very simplistic controls confuse people at the beginning, it can take years for them to find out grabs exist, something every pro uses at a regular basis. This little amount of information can heavily discourage new players that are looking for a fun experience.

Now take a more complex or better old school fighter and you can see at a glance the problem. The divide that exists between beginners and slightly experienced players explodes into a giant rift. You can't explain to a new player how to perform a hadouken if they already have problems with the essentials but you also don't want to send them on a six hour tutorial trip into the training mode because they have a life after their visit to your house.
Getting bodied over and over again isn't fun for anyone. It's not a crime to have fun feeling good after hours and days of practice but it is one to expect others to do the same when they want to have fun with a game. That is gatekeeping.

The right answer would be to give new players the time they need to experience the game. Borrow them the game. Let them *play*. Someone who touched a controller for the first time isn't going to enter a tournament or fight a gold rank player. Heck, most that play a fighting game aren't even going be aware that these exist.

Frustration can be a motivator but you ain't motivation a kid to become a mathematician by slamming a two page equation on his desk and give him six minutes to solve it.

Street fighter 5 was laught after for its story mode was so easy that a toddler beat it.
Street Fighter 6 is going to be out soon and I fear that it will have the same feature creep as the other games with an even worse story mode.

I feel like I'm drifting off topic.

Teaching the next generation of glue drinking grapplers

Fighting games should still have in game tutorials imo

There is stuff the player is expected to know like lows and mixups. A tutorial shouldnt teach you combos nor to do an antiair move, it should teach you why you could go for that.

Have a fight against a cpu that blocks everything but always goes for unsafe moves. You'll teach the player how to punish

Have a fight against an opponent that always does slow, long windup yet safe moves. You'll teach the player that you can hit the opponent out of an attack. You can punish a move before it even starts.

Have a fight against an opponent that likes to do low parries one after the other where your only move is your (low) knockdown move. You'll teach the player how to do enemy wakeup meatys (and most likely teach the player they exist to begin with) while also checking if the player was paying attention at the punish trial.

Mix in trials like that with small explanations for more technical stuff like explaining what are active frames on a move to begin with, and explaining why your meaty gameplan worked before. Why the counter didnt work (it was on startup) and why your knockdown move always hit as soon as they woke up and why it was so easy to do (Moves can hit for more than just an instant, i present to you: 💫active frames💫)

Cause practicing karate is hard so this should also be, I feel really accomplished when I land a combo I like 👍🏼

The hardest thing for me would be to shove my ego aside. Experiencing ass kickings will be plenty, no way around it but I need to break that wall. I need to look past the insults and the hate.

I kinda dislike the notion of you having to get good and be competitive to enjoy fighting games. You can still enjoy fighting games casually and that is also cool.

Offline content is a must for people to get into fighting games, mortal Kombat 11 does this best by having a lot of unlockable stuff ever-changing towers to win rewards, the best story mode out of the big three(Mk,sf, Tekken) and the Krypt.