Hydrogen-Electric powered boat! Can we get this on our new sailboat? | EP 204

Your numbers are BS. Hydrogen is expensive and electrolyzing seawater is really expensive. Modern Lipo4 batteries would make more sense. Boats are have displacement hulls so weight is needed. Did Toyota pay you well?

Why not use the power from the hydrogen to make more hydrogen?

Hopefully, in the future... which is very nearby today (2023) we just take in seawater, which is split into hydrogen and oxygen, and burns either directly in our hydrogen engine or goes to storage tanks thst will then be used at a later moment to fuel the additional electric engine. right now we would need ca 40 liters of water and 1.5 kWh to generate 33kwh hydrogen power, which could drive a decent boat engine for approx. one hour. Hence the future is we take in water and we sail or engine without ever buying fuel.. and that's why the oil industry does not really like this idea.

Lithium Instead of zinc bromide? seems we didn't learn our lessons about fires.

Hi Distance shores, how much energy could be generated from 11.7 by 4.5 meter square surface area of solar panel on a catamaran boat.

Я даже бензин опасался бы ставить на яхту и машину. А водород! Да еще и под давлением!
Это ездить с бомбой на борту! Которая рано или поздно взорвётся.

The video is leaving out it's biggest disadvantage. Hydrogen costs a lot of energy to make and when converting it back to electricity you have lost about half of it. You would need twice the size of solar on deck.....

If hydrogen was really that great why would they still use that big lumpy battery......... it is obvious?

When generating more solar then the batteries can store you can run the motors a bit faster. When the sun is generating less, you can choose to run the motor slower.

Comparing 64 kg of hydrogen to batteries is rather false as you are not counting the weightm size and the efficiency of the installation.

When carbon in the atmosphere is halved that'll be good because all plants will die

When I look for hydrogen fuel cells I can only find very expensive ones. Like thousands of dollars for less than 1kW output. Can you help me understand how a multi-kilowatt-output fuel cell can be cost-effective at that kind of price? I'd like to be able to use a fuel cell on my small electric boat to increase my range, but at those prices it would cost more than my boat. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places for fuel cells? Any advice welcome!

Why do they need solar panels, surely a hydrogen powered combustion engine is better and produces more energy than it costs to make the hydrogen, as if people are paying thousands to refuel when this is free.

Never have and never will own a sailboat that burns fossil fuel. 60 ft in plans 100% self-sufficient. Get rid of the fossil fuels.

Yes but there are a few Problems you didn't mentioned. The efficiency of electrolysis is round about 70% . The efficiency of a typical fuel cell is below 50%. And to store hydrogen you either have to compress it or cool it down to down to -240°C. This need round about 10% of the energies is in the hydrogen.
So if your solar panels generating 1000w, after transforming it into hydrogen only 700w left, storing the hydrogen would take another 70w so 630w left, and transforming it into electric energy again would reduce it to 315w. So to drive the ship with 1 day(time) with 6 knots would take 3 Days generating the needed hydrogen. I do not think this will work.

I read that a fuel cell tug boat was going to be hitting the Mississippi river some time next year. Hydrogen really is the way forward, all these electric cars are a pipe dream. People have been trying to make all electric feasible for over 100 years and they are no closer to replacing the internal combustion engine than I am to growing gills and becoming Aquaman.

Is the storage system stable?

I can’t wait for hydrogen technology to go mainstream it’s a awesome technology all we need is the fueling stations

Would prefer an all electric boat that was self sufficient vs diesel with maintenance and fuel costs.

How long does it take to refill the hydrogen tanks from an empty state?

Sailing Uma is doing a great job at self sufficient, they are all electric…

Interesting technology. I wonder how these boats will evolve with the introduction of hydrogen generation panels instead of solar panels which is much more efficient than electrolysis derived hydrogen.

Silent Yachts

Ammonia ????

Really cool, thank´s. Sail and hydro, the best combo.

Hydrogen is a no go, complicated and highly inefficient. Use same drive as Uma for high regen output and cover the boat in solar panels. As time goes add more batteries! Greetings from Ottawa!

I suggest you evaluate the Greenline hybrid boats.

Aquaone is a luxury catamaran maker similar to Silent but they use solar and hydrogen and one needs to fill up the hydrogen at a marina.

Hey very nice boat u got i love it its best boat around :D about hydrogen u r right thats the future and i ll remind u that hydrogen comes from water mostly salt water by very easy process electrolysis u dont need to buy the hydrogen from ports :D u produce it on ur boat if u have a good system u can produce enough for direct engine supply if not u ll need small tank and compressor the solar or battery ll start the electrolysis than generator ll came out with 4kW/h in this process u have other products too oxygen, distilled water and salt the system that produce is compact and can fit in car but u ll use bigger for good constant supply than fuel the tank with filtered sea water and go ahead USA navy doing that from decades its time to go commercial ... and make ur boat unsinkable its shame so good boat is not cork style!

JCB in the UK has developed a hydrogen engine . A real game changer.

You have probably followed UMA. They have sailed the east coast of the US. Crossed the N Atlantic, sailed Europe and have now been nearly a year in Norway. They are now N of Norway by about 600 miles in Svalbard, about 10 degrees south of the North Pole. There big robust expeditionary yacht is a 1972 Pearson 36’ coastal cruiser! All done with no diesel. They have an electric motor with lithium and regen prop. They have no propane either, everything is electric: Watermaker, cooking refrigerator, etc. Clever and amazing people.

what hydrogen can do is fantastic, but technology has yet to develop a lot to allow it to be used independently and safely even for individual uses such as a boat. but the problem still remains of how to produce hydrogen. so for now we are too far from commercial use ... maybe in the next 5 years. however there are many errors in this video, kg per kw with lifepo4 and production possibilities and range... on my 28 ft boat I have 2 72V 100ah batteries for about 15 kw total and the weight is about 60kg but without taking up useful space. and I have 1200 watts of solar panels plus wind turbines and regen from the engine ... if you don't change your lifestyle, the current is never enough even with hydrogen ....

Super capacitor batteries much lighter a new breed of power storage.

Push pull magnets are the best way in moving ships through the water.

i've been kind of circle around these renewal energy for the past few weeks, and i feel the best way is to have multiple energy sources. it does not make sense to have just one source of energy flowing on the ocean and expect it to be enough. my ideal solution would be sail or kite system utilizing the wind, and hydro generation while sailing. then of course solar + lithium battery would be a big part of energy source and a back up propulsion solution. as for hydrogen sounds great and all, but having a hydrogen conversion system onboard would be a exhausting.

When you compare hydrogen and lithium, you need to include the extra mechanical systems needed to convert hydrogen to electricity by weight.

Can't imagine the fuel cell system is lightweight.

Good info thanks!
The actual future of this technology and all technology depends on costs and that was not discussed.

Boats, cars, and trucks today that are electrically powered still need petroleum fuels to make the electrical power. As more EV's come online we are far from moving away from petro fuels. I'm very sorry we still can't do better.
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nice video!
in final stages of converting an older offshore cruiser to electric propulsion

I believe this catamaran was Steve Fossett catamaran named Play Station. Steve had 15 world records sailing Play Station and was once clocked at 35 knots. He had the Trans Atlantic and the Jules Verne record.

Thank you, I enjoy your videos and they are very inspiring.
However, I think you need to make the core concept of this boat more explicit as such: "the perpetual cruiser"
1) Hydrogen is a storage mechanism, and the weight for power ratio vs batteries is favorable.
2) Power is generated in real-time by a LOT of solar panels, and this can effectively create enough average power to move the boat indefinitely, or this is at least the project goal
3) Beyond immediate needs (propulsion) the solar panels charge the batteries until full, and then produce hydrogen to store in these special tanks

The overall picture is the key. This is not a boat that you stop and plug-in somewhere to refuel or recharge. If you run out of stored power, you can simply wait and it will charge up via the sun. Given sensible power storage management, one can cruise indefinitely.

So, Hydrogen has two main advantages over Batteries. 1) the storage medium is WAY lighter, and 2) "refueling" (charging?) times can be WAY shorter. In pretty much every other way, Hydrogen is worse. Comparing the weight of the Hydrogen to the weight of the battery is dumb at best and fraudulent at worst. You have to compare the weight of all systems required for it to work. The Batteries require 1) charge controllers (95% efficient, small, light, solid state), and 2) cables (98% efficient) while losing about 10% to internal resistance for about 84% round trip efficiency of the system. That's pretty much it. The Hydrogen requires an electrolysis device (75% efficient, is much larger and heavier than an equivalent capacity charge controller, is mechanically complex (pumps, valves, through hulls), and is holding corrosive sea water, 2) compressor (90% efficient, is mechanically complex, is safety critical (compressing a highly flammable gas to high pressure), 3) tanks and valves (100% efficient if not leaking) but the tanks are heavier than the fuel, 4) fuel cell (60% efficient, weighs twice that of an equivalent power diesel engine) for about 40% round trip efficiency of the system. No wonder they can't move and produce Hydrogen at the same time. Their battery weight is also excessive. Tesla's 85kWh battery pack weighs 1200lb, indicating that 100kWh should weigh 1412lb, not 1.5 tonnes (they are French) or 3300lb. Also consider the relative safety risk of Hydrogen which causes embrittlement of metal, is odorless, colorless, tasteless, is an extremely small molecule so is difficult to contain, is under high pressure, and is highly flammable over a very wide range of fuel to air ratios. People who won't have propane tanks inside the boat are really going to freak out about Hydrogen. Stating Hydrogen fueled ranges as a function of speed while not stating the kWh expended (easily monitiored by the engine controller) really paints a rosy picture. Power required is directly proportional the the speed cubed. Slowing down a little saves a lot of power, whether it comes from Hydrogen or batteries. So, where does Hydrogen beat batteries? When power required is very low when compared to the total energy required (very long endurance), when refueling times are pretty important, and when the cost of energy going in is significantly less important. So, think multifunctional buoys, remote weather or radio stations that can't do solar, etc.

only one acronym: CPP

Great job on explaining all of that. You guys always do a wonderful job. I appreciate all your videos. Thank you and keep up the good work.

I think that graphene batteries, and possible graphene desalination could be real game changers. Apparently the power required to generate the pressure required for reverse osmosis desalination is high than you'd think. Graphene allows for lower pressure, and energy expenditure to get the same water. Graphene batteries will also be significantly lighter, and almost completely eliminate the rare earth metals required in lithium batteries. They are still a number of years from being cost efficient on an energy density basis, but it shows a lot of promise for a material we only discovered in 2016. What do you think?

I had read about someone who apparently had figured out to make a steam engine with around 42% (diesel like) efficiency, and at full load 25% (petrol/gasoline) efficiency.

That is interesting, becuase one can easily use all sorts of torrefaction treated (or not) solid fuel, and liquid and gaseous fuels.

There is no real single magic bullet and in any energy conversion, there is always a loss. Carbon based fuels are very inefficient, but are widely available and there is a comfort in the mentality of familiarity. Solar in general has an efficiency in production that is not that attractive on the surface and is limited to only part of our 24 hr day, but is generally passive and reliable. Wind generators tend to be noisy and don't produce the amount of energy per space required on a boat. Hydro produces drag and makes sailing less efficient.

The thing is, there are multiple forms of energy around us. Finding ways to harness and convert them are what sailing really is all about! Sailing is about harnessing the thermal heating of our atmosphere and earths rotation with qualities of low and high pressure zones to create lift on our sails and keels that propel us through vast regions of our planets surface. If we embrace this basic concept and just continue the idea, then using solar, hydro and wind for electrical energy conversion and storage into both battery and hydrogen technologies will make far more sense on an intuitive level.

On a sailboat, we are mostly used to the idea of planning our resources with our planned routes. The idea that our energy storage system my no longer cost several dollars per liter, but just uses time/use to refill, will expand our horizons.

If with solar, wind and hydro as our general means of energy and LIon and hydrogen as a coordinating fuel tank, we can think of the overall cost comparison as already being on par when we consider the time spent earning the money, time spent going to and from a fuel dock from our desired location and refueling and the cost of fuel, fuel polishing, etc. vs the up front cost and that the refills come while we sit on the hook and play instead. If we think of it this way, renewables are already outperforming carbon based fuels.

The idea that in the doldrums, we may only motor for 6 hrs a day if just on solar, needs to be more fairly compared to what happens when you run out of carbon based fuel and can no longer get even 6 hrs a day? Think of the hydrogen as the back up fuel tank that magically refills if you manage your resources conservatively and doesn't require a visit to the fuel dock for each time you run the engine.

I know, too long of a comment, but there is a lot to consider, even if one doesn't care about knowledge or our environment.

The first thing that struck me was the huge area on those rigid wing sails. Put semi flexible solar panels on each side of the wing sail and that'll sig increase power generation / range

Adding a hydrogen generator fuel cell which can generate hydrogen from the salt water while underway is the future. Aluminium generates hho gas in salt water there would be something better but ??
The design would be pipe like to increase surface activity

So i am stuck at home in Sydney Australia due to this virus that is not giving up so i am getting a bit of envy watching the video which i would like to thankyou for producing. So the video has inspired me add a few commits my area of expertise is in batteries and alternative energy technology.
Unfortunately as you have witnessed the technology in batteries and solar is not there yet for boating due to available size and weight constraints.
There is a company in Western Australia (ATC.ASX) is working in a process on the coating of silicone with pure alumina in theory to stabilise the silicone at a 30% mix in lithium based batteries. The silicone can greatly increase the storage capacity of a lithium battery and with a stable 30% mix of silicone would increase the capacity by approximately 50% compared to a present standard NCM mix.
In the labs at the moment they are developing multi layer / multi frequency solar cells that can charge with an increased efficiency compared to existing single frequencies solar panel.
Hydrogen still worry's me due to we do not have an endless supply of water compared to the sun.

A 100 years ago people would only have been focusing on the technology and would not have given a thought that fossils would be such a problem in the future. So what will future generations think about this technology of breaking down a limited time frame resource for an energy source when there are other technology's are coming and improving all the time. Governments will love hydrogen due to they can hit the supply chain with tax compared to the sun which is free at the moment until governments can work out how to tax that too!
Hydrogen has issues of
% efficiencies of motors
% efficiencies of manufacturer but this may improve
% using a source of energy that is not unlimited
An Australian based company (GEV.ASX) is at present designing a pilot hydrogen power ship for the export of hydrogen, thought you would to google
regards