The Fireflies and Marlene - A Deconstruction of Villainy

Down with the rebelS

With the game and show, it has always baffling why Marlene just didn't just give Joel and Ellie time to say good bye if the operation is what Ellie wanted. No one gave a shite about Ellie as a person at that moment. Marlene only saw a cure, Joel was blinded by his love for Ellie and they both forgot that Ellie is a person.

My two pennies to a very late conversation.

u make a lot of good points but the biggest mistake the fireflies made was telling a murder hobo that his pseudo daughter was about to be killed for maybe no reason and then not expecting said murder hobo to go on a rampage

I've been saying this for years. Everyone is like Joel was right or Joel was wrong. I'm like fuck that Marlene was wrong what was the rush?

A world where you need to kill a child in order to sustain it, isn't worth saving.

Sacrificing ellie is the morally correct decision. We can argue for years about how impossible it would be to distribute the vaccine, and we have. But the bottom line is more people, including children would survive longer with a vaccine. Having said that Joel was not wrong for the choice he made. That was his daughter. Not Sarah but his daughter non the less. His job in life is to protect her. The fireflies handled the situation horribly and to this day I believe they didn't have to kill ellie, as many real world surgeons have pointed out. I believe they rather kill ellie, the only known immune person rather than letting fedra find her and creat their own vaccine. In a perfect world a more neutral party would have found ellie and created a vaccine but the whole series is about how much more dangerous people are than the infected.

The fireflies stared with a noble cause but after loss after loss they got bitter. And winning became more important than their original objective.

oh, i legit thought for the first cutscene they appear you were gonna use the credits when they are mentioned, but nope XD

also i think the Fireflies are an example of some people wanting good, in this case Marleen, but the majority of the group being just simple anarchists, the thing about anarchists, all they care about, and know to do is destroy, they cant lead, they dont know how to deal at all, and so usually in revolutions wile anarchists are good at taking down governments they are terrible at leading and thats why we see them as bad, because the reality is that without order theres only chaos and anarchists sow chaos by wanting ONLY to take down the rule they dislike, hence why Pitsburg ended as a shitty city controlled by a merciless raider group

Not even giving Joel his backpack is a death sentence. Completely ungrateful for Joel and Ellie’s journey. Not letting him see her, waiting til she woke up to explain they have to take her life to save humanity. So many mistakes on the FF side. They caused their own downfall. They picked the wrong man to mess with.

Ehhh in my opinion the point of the Fireflies is that they became more obsessed with fighting FEDRA at every turn than to make any real advancements in a study for a cure. Come to think of it, the Fireflies never at one point in the game ever made the world a better place if even briefly. They weren’t portrayed as losers. They WERE losers. All they ever did was make regular people with better than decent morals sleep soundly. While the rest of the world succumbed to the darkness.

I’m confused did you just say FEDRA was tyrannical? The rules were fair and just yes they were strict but they have to be so that conditions don’t get worse. For once the government are better than the rebels

If I were Joel I would’ve made the same choice. Not only because of Ellie but because if you think about it sure humans are homicidal maniacs and there are zombies but if you just stay inside the walls your most likely safe and besides that ironically enough the worlds ecosystem is probably doing better with less pollution and other issues because there isn’t as much electricity or pollutants being used.

I... Really care about Ellie... And i really like Joel...i just finished part one for the first time (yeah, took me a while to play the game)... And...i hope they'll live happy lives..... Right?😢...(I... Didn't avoid some spoilers ...)

part 2 sucks so much, joel trying to save ellie has nothing in common with abbys stupid quest for vengeance

Remember, in TLOU2 at the animal museum. They are torturers, murderers and liars

One thing I have always wondered is, if Ellie was sacrificed for a cure and Joel never killed the surgeon or the Fireflies... what would have happened if the cure failed? Only immune person is now dead, and there's no cure at the same time either. If Joel decided to kill the surgeon then, I wonder if there'd be more morality in it. Obviously Abby would be getting her revenge at that point still, and there'd be no Ellie to enact revenge. Tommy probably would have done the job Ellie was attempting to do, but it's definitely an avenue that I wonder about

I think that Marlene and Ellie felt the same way at the end about the whole cure thing. I think that even though Ellie didn't know what was gonna happen, when Joel first asked her if she wanted to run she had decided to follow through. Joel at the end was put back into father mode after his own daughter being gone and couldn't let another child in his arms die even if it was the smarter option/ for the better good. Marlene was well written because she stayed calculating until the end but we see her become more empathetic because she cares for Ellie in the same way Joel did but came to a diff conclusion bc of her calculating personality. At the end Marlene had definitely lost more than Joel did and was able to see past the pain of losing a loved one but Joel was a survivalist looking after himself and only started caring about others after getting to know Ellie. Players meet Marlene when she was approaching the end of her character development/story but we were still getting to know Joel. Marlene could've been a completely diff person prior to meeting Tess and Joel but we only see this cold woman trying to get a job done but we were there to see Joel morph back into an empathetic and caring father after being a cold blooded, selfish, survivalist. 10/10 story I would say

I can see why people think this group are the "good guys", they are most definitely based on a post-apocalyptic Anteefa. I see it like they'd use the vaccine for leverage and more power, not to actually help.

I would not let my son be sacrificed for a cure, too bad so sad. And if youre going to kill me to kill him id take both me and my son out so nobody gets shit.

I firmly don't believe the Fireflies or Marlene are villains. I think the only way the story works is if it's specifically deconstructing the need for heroes and villains. It's full of protagonists and antagonists instead.

However, stressing the "quick to act, slow to think" aspect would be the only appropriate why to interpret the failure of the Fireflies and the success of Jackson. Marlene fights like hell to oppose real oppression, but she doesn't offer a replacement. That's the story reason for Philadelphia falling into chaos. They got their revolution, but didn't offer a substantive alternative. Also the reason for David's settlement existing. David offers an alternative, but it's just as horrific as the oppressive government or the plague.

However, I also think a lot of the writing is made sloppy by forcing it into a conventional fps. Not saying fps games can't be good storytelling or that Last of Us is not a good story. It just has points that got unfairly sacrificed to fit it into a game. It was one of the forerunners of AAA fps games that are defined by story, so the writing is understandably shaky in some of the details.

It's funny, that the once who later hurt Ellie the most, who attack her, betray her and kill her surrogate dad, uncle and lover, the ones who make her go on her revenge quest, are the (ex-)fireflies. Marlene is right, people want to murder her, but it is her people who want to kill her later.

No I don't like the Idea about "hero's" in the last of us universe. It is about survival and trying to solve the situation in different ways.

Honestly, I feel like the simplest takeaway about the fireflies is that they're capable people, not good people. They they would have been able to make the Cure, but would've been just as tyrannical and violent as Fedra.

But didnt the fireflies kill sam his daughter?

I think the fireflies represent the fragile hope of returning to the old world that was lost. They seem like good guys, because hope is a great thing, but hope alone won't get you anywhere.

edit: ahh, this what what he says at the end. Whatever man, fine!

Considered finally playing this game. $70 on PSN. No thx.

The Last of Us is one of the best examples of video games being art. It didnt need a sequal.

At the end of the day, ellie was joel's daughter, by all intents and purposes!
As a father to a daughter myself, theres no way i would sacrifice my daughter for others, even if a cure was a sure thing.
Theres no way a single agency with a cure, would cure humanity without weaponising the cure, using it to get what they want, to get their own way of thinking forced onto all.

I mostly agree with the fireflies, outside of the random bombings and violence that literally just makes civilian life harder. Up until they get Ellie. The fact that they are unwilling to wait for Ellie to wake up and ask her to willingly make that sacrifice is unacceptable and looses them all moral high ground. And trying to manipulate Joel in hopes that he'll just lay down and accept it, well that's just a nail in the coffin.

(Fun fact: the writers confirmed that if Ellie was left with the Fireflies they WOULD have succeeded)

Idk it makes sense to me that the fireflies were jerks when you finally find them out west they’re fighting a losing cause they make it seem like the people there are mostly all that’s left and I’m sure they have a lot of war type trauma think about the walking dead how many times was Rick an absolute a hole because of experiences even operating on Ellie they were just desperate they couldn’t lose more people and the cure was the last hope they had this story is so excellently crafted life trying to survive is morally gray good people do questionable things because of the amount of absolutely sick people there are being completely good can get you killed and trauma negative impacts decision making

Joel is an anti-hero (a protagonist who lacks traditional qualities of a hero) and Marlene is an anti-villain (an antagonist whose intentions are good, but means of getting there are evil)

My problem with the Fireflies is as you've pointed out. They have failed spectacularly at every given opportunity. They fail in Boston, they fail to make a cure in Colorado, they probably would've failed again with Ellie. We are given no evidence whatsoever that they are doing anything but shooting in the dark, hoping something will work.
In April on the west coast of the United States, the sun sets around 8 PM. We can safely assume that this all transpires close to midnight or in the early hours (2-5 AM) of April 29, 2034. Giving a rough estimate, Joel and Ellie find the Fireflies in the late morning/early afternoon. Let's just say they find them at 10 AM for simplicity's sake.
That means that, at best, Jerry Anderson (the head doctor) and the rest of his team had a maximum of 19 hours to study, as far as anyone knows, the only case of immunity to the CBI pandemic in the entire world.
Even if they had something to study in the 9-12 months from the beginning of the game to the end of it, that was purely hypothetical and theoretical. They have some failed tests, but nothing resembling actual progress. There is no evidence to suggest that what happened at the University wouldn't happen again, but this time they would lose the only concrete evidence that immunity is possible.

All this time firefly’s we’re not the bad guys!?

All this time firefly’s we’re not the bad guys!?

Kind of feel like there is too much emphasis on trying to work out if the Fireflies are competent or not. I think that is extremely oversimplifying the game. Don't really think it is trying to say that a better group could theoretically carry out their goals. Think they are just trying to show how difficult and complex their situation is, how much the odds are against them. They are clinging to an old way of life, Marlene is clinging to an old way of life. The United states is gone and the game is saying that it might not be possible to return there even with a cure. Democracy is difficult to set up and is constantly fragile.
Also, even though Tommy's place is idyllic it's only benefiting a small, exclusive group of people. It's not exactly a solution that is benefiting anyone apart from the people lucky enough to find it. They were lucky enough to find people to trust, the dam and have it work out. There is a reason they are hidden. Its not a be all and end all solution. Especially if they are discovered. It might lead to bigger and better things down the road but its also extremely fragile.
So I kind of feel you are doing a disservice here to Marlene, even if she is wrong she is doing it to find a solution for everyone. Even if that goal is misguided, to call her selfish or villain I think is a stretch. She is willing to have a black mark on her soul and do something she doesn't want to save others. She is wrestling with it and trying to get Joel's permission. The developers confirm it would have led to a cure ( I think , using real world medicine is kind of a cop out and missing the point. The point is if a theoretical cure is worth an innocent's life) .
Tommy/Joel are just protecting their own people and loved ones. They aren't interested in making the wider world a better place but protecting their in-group( at the expense of the out-group by not advertising their community). I'm not saying either is right or wrong but I think it's too simple to say that Tommy has found a universal solution and that Marlene is wrong especially when we are shown that Tommy hides the settlement from the wider world and that Marlene's solution would result in a cure.
Also kind of undermines your point when you admitted you agreed with the Fireflies at first. Obviously their goals and methods have some merit. So obviously the developers weren't trying to make them out to be incompetent. They are fighting overwhelming odds which you pointed out numerous times. Tommy only has to protect one small, out of the way community.

I always thought that the fireflys would try to weponized the cure in some way. In their hands it looks more like the ultimate power than hope (it would be poison)

Hey fat Brett can you make a video about the wlf scars and rattlers and how they play in ellie and Abby’s story’s

How many people here know that the story in The Last of Us is literally based off the 2006 movie Children of Men?

The Fishers in that movie are the Fireflies and their whole goal was to use the only woman pregnant as leverage against the oppressive government.

I'm late to this, but, like with some characters, the FireFlies and Marlene are a great example of Vas' insanity speech from Far Cry 3. Their multiple attempts of libertating F.E.D.R.A, and progess of making a vaccine ending in failure and/or a complete dead end. From Boston, Pittsburgh, and Colorado, we see all of their attempts end on failure. Now, at Salt Lake City, with Joel trying to save Ellie, they have a chance to study Ellie's immunity to make a vaccine, but realizes the FireFlies have to kill her to make a vaccine. Not wasting this chance, they immediately start prepping the surgery. Yet they couldn't bring themselves to give Ellie a say of her fate. They couldn't give the same hope to Ellie by giving her a say in her fate.

My brother we need last of us part 2 videos! Your perspective and breakdown of the first game is needed for part 2

I truly think the fireflies couldn’t have gotten it done but I think the moral dilemma still stands, because Joel didn’t know that

I think that was the whole oint of what the writers wanted. To make us question our trust in the Fireflies, to question their competence.

To question our morales of right and wrong. Do we sacrifice a girl for the greater good, or have an innocent girl killed for a plan that has so many problems that will stop it from ever working?

I think in the end, Marlene was actually just as desperate and weak as she was at the beginning. She can't bear to let Ellie wake up bc she might waver in her decision. And she rushes the surgery instead of allowing for time to actually study Ellie's immunity because she is so desperate for results.

I think the fireflies really run by the phrase "the ends justify the means". They've had to make sacrifices and they just tell themselves it's all for the end goal. They are fighting for peace and justice while whittling away at those very things through their actions.

I swear it feels like the story of LOUS1 was rebuilt with the plot twist ending of there is no cure. Then the fire flies were changed from a hopeful ally and into a villain so the twist could be justified.

the fireflies lose their compelling nature towards the end, where they are made more cartoony so joel comes off more of a hero. a 2 hour video about tlou 1 from mettkaykay (or something, sorry if i got the name wrong) pointed this out, among other good points that make the fireflies seem poorly written at the end.

when i finished the game, i know im supposed to think and feel "omg what have i done?!", but honestly that feeling didn't last long because the fireflies were douchebags.

the fireflies should have been helpful to save the hope of humanity from drowning, should have rewarded joel for his mission and shouldn't have antagonized the guy who risked his life helping them out. they could either lie about ellie's procedure and get busted for it, or they could still have told him the truth, so he ends up killing the surgeon and marlene and actually ends up in the morally grey area.

that way, joel is less of a hero and more of a dad, like walter white. he's essentially killed the equivalent of gus fring, the lesser evil, for his family and then lied to her. i really think this would have nailed home the "wtf have i done" feeling wayyy better

Your assertion that a cure would not be likely to be successfully manufactured from Ellie has the only evidence being the FIREFLIES perceived incompetence, which is pretty weak evidence. Your reasons ascribed to why Marlene wants to continue the procedure are also speculation.

It is far more likely that any rational human would make that choice even if it wasn’t a guarantee in the making of a vaccine. Kind of silly to entertain the idea that Marlene’s decision was just to preserve her reputation, something that is never really mentioned, instead of the much more likely reason of wanting to save the world.

1/2

As much as I agree with many parts of your video, I don't agree with some of your interpretations, and I think you've missed a few things.

It's not on us to question what we've been presented about the fireflies. We are given vast amounts of evidence and characterisation that presents their many, many failures, and they have no redeeming successes to make up for it. If Characters are dismissive of them, that's not a mistake of the writing for the game. It's characterisation and information given to the player, and it's especially important for Joel, because the decision he makes at the end of the game is directly impacted by what he thinks of the fireflies. He doesn't care about a cure and doesn't think it's even possible, the only reason why he's there is because of Ellie. From his perspective, he dislikes the fireflies for personal reasons, he finds them distasteful, he finds them useless, incompetent, and all of these feelings are reinforced throughout the game. At the end, they're going to kill Ellie for what, we know, he believes is fantasy.

We can only go on what we're given in the story, and the story simply doesn't show that they are, to quote, "capable and competent enough".
Joel's (and the player's) perspective can only get hardened by their failures both organisationally (Boston, Capitol building, ruining Pittsburg, Colorado abandoned, resources lost, and in their repeated failures of medical research). We also see that they are no better than any other group, except they pretend they are, which makes them even worse from the player's perspective. When Joel finds the dead firefly doctor who released a bunch of infected monkeys into the wild (and promptly got bitten for his darwin award) I was a little surprised the characters didn't react a bit more to the fact that in their stupidity and lack of thought they've introduced a new vector for the fungus to spread that humans don't know about. It doesn't speak much to their doctor's quality.

Regarding Tess and her disposition toward the fireflies, she starts initially wary. The thought of starting a fight with them is, obviously, to her, quite a stupid idea and we can imagine why - they're dangerous, and it's not in law-breakers interests to fight each other when they don't have to, they must do business with the fireflies as well.
The part where you talk about Tess' perspective on the fireflies later is coloured by what's happened to her. In Tess' scenes from the museum onwards, where she was obviously bitten, her behaviour changes. In hindsight it's easy to see why, though at the time people might not notice her new focus, hurry and desperation, and it all comes to that scene in the capitol building. Up until then, and when she asks Ellie about the fireflies' plans, she is desperate. Absolutely desperate to find anything to save herself, and I think this is more of a comment on our ability to delude ourselves and go against beliefs, even deep seated ones when it's a matter of life and death, which is exactly what the entire game is about - people do extraordinary things to survive.
I think that's important because the player is shown that Tess is distressed and despairing when she's so hopeful about the fireflies. When she dies, that's more about making her own life matter in the last seconds of it rather than true belief, as well as a geniune concern for her friend's life and a child's life.

I simply do not agree that the player is meant to take any of this as a positive toward the group.

To me it feels like the portrayal of the fireflies as being incompetent could also be intentional, because from my perspective they could never be anything more. They're held together by hopes and dreams, they have no unifying code of conduct other than to follow orders and to fulfil their main goal of making a cure, they have no government ability, they aren't leaders or protectors of people. They're not soldiers, the fireflies are just a desperate group of people that are clinging on to this one hope of a cure and are placing all of their bets on it.