Cantrips Can't. R.I.P. or Why Oversaturation of Magic is Bad For D&D

I have numerous critiques of this video:
- A fighter having 25 AC for three rounds per day is only a massive obstacle if your DM only makes monsters that attack. That fighter still has saves that can be targeted, and the fighter actually has things they could be doing with their reaction(namely opportunity attacks) so the opportunity cost of casting shield as a fighter is typically higher.
- A dip for magic is still a level dip. You sacrifice progression in one class for goodies from another. The fighter that gets a bit of the wizard's limited resources is a bit worse at doing the main things that fighters do at each level. Why is it necessary for a PC to commit wholly to one or the other?
- If your players think that having to scrounge for spell components is fun, house ruling it back in is as trivial as striking out the lines referencing foci and component pouches. In AD&D, at least, the rules were already about as minimalistic as that, and seemingly most people just tended to just handwave it back then too.
- The 5E PHB specifically describes situations that would disable a spellcaster: using a gag or a field of silence to block verbal components, binding the hands to block somatic and material components. To claim that DMs do not have means of countering spellcasting is simply untrue.
- There are 33 spells in 5e that have the ritual tag and 7 of them are above level 3, and of those only one isn't super-situational and 3 of them have countermeasures built in to prevent spamming. I think you're overstating the usefulness of high-level ritual magic. Non-wizards do need to prepare rituals before they can cast them and even Wizards have to find or deliberately pick them so they aren't "removed from the spell list" in any way.
- "Each encounter should deplete a portion of the group's assets." Why? Can they not negotiate with or outsmart encounters?
- Holy crap dude, you should have reviewed the actual text of the Ritual Casting feature on non-wizards before making this video. And rituals take 10 minutes to cast, not 1.
- What's the point of darkvision when light exists? What's the point of night vision goggles when flashlights exist?
- Taking a feat to gain access to spellcasting is an opportunity cost, in the same way that taking a level dip is an opportunity cost.
- Shield Master is a great feat actually, it can compensate for low Dex saving throws on heavy armor users that dump dexterity and offers a consistent usage for bonus actions, which some classes have a hard time exploiting. A bonus action shield shove is good for the same reason the shield spell is good: the action economy.
- Mage Hand specifically states it can open an unlocked container or door, it can't pick locks without Mage Hand Legerdemain which has a subclass built around how useful that is. The math surrounding Green-Flame Blade is a bit complicated, and it's often better than just attacking twice, but not always. Resistance is an action, and taking actions to increase your saving throws in the middle of combat is usually bad whereas Shield Master doesn't require your action, only your reaction and only if it benefits you.

At early levels, a light crossbow is comparable to or beats your damage output with a minimal investment in dexterity, and by the time cantrips level up full casters can throw out 9 spells a day. You could completely cut them and casters would be alright. Racial bloat is a beast of an issue in 5e but I don't think removing spellcasting from all of them is the move, especially the ones in the PHB. Switching cantrips for a once/long rest 1st level spell is a fair trade if you're cutting cantrips.

I agree with your sentiment but you should review the rules on ritual casting before trying to tell everyone that it's a bane on game design. There are opportunity costs I think you're just ignoring.

I missed this one, and I missed some genuine gold! Thank you sir!! 👊🤓

Problem here is that solution will only swing rituals from practically free, to so costly that you may as well just save the paperwork and erase ritual casting all together.

In other news, I've noticed that any attempt to solve N problems in 5e reveals at least that many more.

You raise some great points about spell components. Oversaturation with magic is the cheesiest aspect of D&D and I was always thinking just to take all the absurdly powerful and/or game-breaking spells and simply remove them from the game world. BUT you could just make the components well-nigh impossible to get. Like making holly berries incredibly rare. But one of the biggest game-breakers is Detect - and it only requires gp worth of gold dust. Gotta figure out a good rationale for why that would be so hard to get.

I think part of this stems from crossover with other fantasy genre hobbies. D&D's traditional spellcasting, compared to what you see in anime or video games, tends to feel clunky and restrictive. But, so far as I can tell as someone who joined the hobby with 5e (and has since graduated from it), D&D's casting was clunky because it was balanced for that.

Rather than stick to their guns or implement more flexible forms of magic that traded power for ease of use (Sorcerer would be great for this!), WotC instead seem to have attempted to make casting as simple as it is in a game (where you merely need to know the spell and have enoug MP/Mana/FP/etc.) while maintaining the incredible utility and power of older conceptions of the system.

But I could be getting this entirely wrong; I may have been with the hobby for several years now, but this is a subject that requires far more knowledge of the game's histoey than I have.

5e.
Warlock.
Eldritch Blast.

You're not entirely wrong, but the problem is, in earlier editions, the barrier to entry for magic classes to players, both new and old, especially to the ones who hadn't mastered the level of Cunning Bastard necessary to break the game, was remarkably high. Resource Management as a fighter or ranger was easy, even if for a wizard it was stupidly hard and complex. Remember you had to allot individual spell slots, not just "I wanna have fireball ready" but if you hadn't prepared it twice, you couldn't cast it twice. If you wanted a different third level spell in that slot, but you'd prepared fireball, tough crap, even if you HAD prepared the other spell that day, you already cast it, this is a fireball.

Moreover, the increased utility of cantrips was paid for by paring back everyone's spell slots. Poor Sorcerers kinda got it in the neck, too, because they lost worse than the wizards and got Metamagic exclusivity. Seriously, go look at what kinda spell slots you USED to get compared to 5e. Don't forget you no longer get bonus spell slots for having a high INT score.

Further, your argument regarding spell components is spurious. You have completely ignored both verbal and somatic components, which are quite necessary for spells, and tend to nerf the hell out of social bastardry type spells if you pay attention to the rules as written. They also give you a way to practically muzzle the wizard. Gag him, tie his hands behind his back, and stuff his head in a black bag. Between this and paying attention to the "required empty hand" rules, you can put a limit on the level of shenanigans. Finally, READ THE SPELL DESCRIPTIONS. You can't pick a lock with Mage hand, how do I know this? I READ THE BOOK. The Arcane Trickster specifically states this as an additional function of mage hand accessible only to that class. You can't set it to do the dishes for you, either, because you have to use your action to control it, and it can only manipulate AN object, not two. Doing chores is a task for Unseen Servant, a completely different leveled spell (which is level 1 and does have the ritual tag, to be fair to you), which also has strict rules on what it can and cannot do.

I think the "required, expendable spell components" is a good addition for certain spells, as that already has precedent with certain spells extant in the book, and the extended ritual casting time might be worth investigation, though not necessarily as long as you have insisted. Most of the limiting can be done quite well enough by not fudging the important points of the rules.

I never tracked material components unless it was an expensive component. But I agree on cantrips and the gist of the video. Especially tracking torches and rations

What if magic users had unlimited uses of the AD&D spell cantrip?

you can't stop wizards from casting spells? I always found that strangling them worked.

I highly recommend the magic system (actually the whole damn game) of ‘Beyond the Wall.’

Every caster can cast three types of magic: Cantrips, Spells, and Rituals.

Cantrips are very minor magics that you only learn a limited number of but that a caster can use an unlimited number of times per day, but each use requires a check. Fail and things backfire.

Spells - mostly equivalent in potency to 5e 1st and 2nd level spells. You can merely cast a number of spells per day equal to your level.

Rituals - these are more powrful magics that require exotic material components and takes an hour per level of the ritual to cast. These are more equivalent to 3rd level and beyond.

Rituals are wheee it gets really interesting. They have a range of magic such as raising undead, resurrection and causing a common shared dream in a community, but these take nearly a full day to cast. There’s often a check (or series of checks) involved that can be modified by story element things as decided upon by the GM. Why is the evil arch-necromancer standing in a stone circle, at midnight, during an eclipse, and about to sacrifice the princess? Because it makes it easier to summon an army of the dead.

Simple, easy, and incredibly flavorful.

Not bad, but Wizard/Spell casters need to be scary. A lot of "spell" a fighter can shrug off. If you want to make magic challenging, you would have to make it scary for people to face a high level caster. Spell threat to characters resilience is crap.

Mind you, I play 3.5/Pathfinder. My crown achievement was to summon 160 celestial beings in one round (maximized Time Spot is awesome). I was told I am never allowed to play a summoner specialist again.

Was spell component management ever part of the game? Like ive never played official dnd before 5th edition but ive played plenty of retroclones and other than money components has always just been flavor. Like D&D spells are not built with that in mind.

I mean, I'm a huge sucker for Duegar and honestly given that Enlarge is massively nerfed in 5E and no longer bumps you up on the table of Damage Rolls nor even gives Reach, just "Advantage on Strength checks" (Which doesn't seem to include even str based attack or damage rolls) and 1d4 extra damage it's barely even magic.

I am currently trying to wean mynpkayers off of 5e, but they keep wanting to play that fucking stupid game. So I have implemented the following rules change regarding cantrips:

If a caster uses a the same cantrip within one minute’s time, they must make a Constitution Saving Throw at DC 10 or gain one level of exhaustion as they are channeling magic through their body amd it can take its toll on them physically. Each time they use the same cantrip more than once within the same minute without resting, the DC for the saving theow goes up by 2.

Since I have ganked casters I have also implemented the Lingering Injuries rule from Ch8 of the DMG. This makes getting into a fight potentially dangerous…as it should be.

That was the best ditty I have ever heard

COC Keeper here and yeah, anyone can use magic in Call of Cthulhu. The real tricks are finding the right tomes with the spells you want. Having enough willpower and mana to cast them. And lastly, whether or not your sanity will hold out.

I think another problem with 5E magic system is a lack of the potential for failure. The idea of spell slots and components are useful are good and a player understanding casting fireball in a small confined space can equal a TPK. However, spells go off without a hitch, a guaranteed success. A spell never fizzles out or misses or, worse, turns on the caster.

I listen to all these problems and laugh, and contentedly play AD&D.

I always disliked the "Martials don't need to worry about resources" argument, because unless you're fighting nothing but absolute mooks the fighter is gonna take some hits. Fighters have to manage a very important resource: their HP.

I like the fantasy flight warhammer psykers/wizards you get cool very powerful magic that you can cast whenever and in general are very cool, but at the same time can literally blow up and tpk the group with a few really bad roles so using it is a gamble and having more than one is asking to die tho and other types of characters are often too useful to pass up on for another psyker AND it's something you can't dip into except for extremely rare situations, they're

"Magic spells aren't magical because they just aren't okay!!!!!"

In my opinions cantrips are less an issue than not enough encounters/too many spell slots. Most of my players dont use cantrips when they can burn through spells and never run out

If I had to speculate as to why... I'd blame video games, frankly. RPGs with multiple characters have a need to force certain playstyles, so each character feels unique and still viable; The mage is squishy, the warrior has a shield, the rest happens naturally. Hack-and-slash games where the wizard gets a fireball in the same way that the ranger gets a bow: a spamable ranged attack. MMOs where your spells are your main source of damage, and hitting things with your staff feels like a joke at best.

Over the decades, such has reinforced a feeling in people's minds that Wizards should spend every possible action casting spells. Running out of spells isn't an option, drink those MP potions... except D&D doesn't use MP. I'm not a gambling man, but I'd bet a lot that this is the train on logic that led to the addition of cantrips. That, and 4e's experiment with "at-will" abilities.

Nice use of Gymkata

There is a fix so many 5E D&D players miss. Play a non-D&D game.

A pretty good video that reinforces an endemic problem in D&D from 3.5 onward, and a pretty great way of letting me know I dodged a bullet with 5th edition, because god DAMN was I sick of literally everyone being a "gish" or full caster in 3.5 and Pathfinder 1.

The last line ended up causing me to break into singing "where there's a whip there's a way" from the Hobbit

Surprisingly, I enjoyed playing a wizard in 5e. Being able to use Mage Hand and change the color of things let me add a lot of magic flavor to non-combat scenes without the need to hold them back for potential life saving moments. It was fun. If I ever run games again, I think I will buff spell castors with more access to flavor spells. WoTC must be destroyed.

Something something Bicycle Repair Man

I instituted a house rule that everyone needed components to cast spells for a 5e mod of The Lost City, which got groans but they loved playing it.

Same thing whit dark vision. I remember a group that had so much players whit it that I felt like my human was disabled.

I'm so glad I've stuck with 2E. Even with all it's problems, it works best for me and my players.

Wait a minute, I just realized my main wizard PC loves fireballs and he is a bat. He can have the spell component for his fireball so long as he's not starving!

I had a discussion regarding the 5e spell "Prestidigitation" on another video recently, in which I stipulated that a spell named Prestidigitation should perform extremely minor feats of telekinesis, as if to help in a magician stage show (the kind of magic that a non-spellcaster charlatan can imitate with proper setup and Sleight of Hand rolls) while things like Ignite Candle, Tiny Illusion, and Showy Sparkles should be their own separate cantrips and a lot of flavor to your wizards would come from which ones they'd learn.

You know, at some point if you have to change a system so much just to become 'not horrible', why not just start ioff wih an actually good system? :)
It's not like there isn't a ton of choices, even just staying in D&D ^^ but beyond it might even get better

D&D; MCU

Cleaning the house with prestidigitation? That's silly. That's for clothes. Clean the house with Unseen Servant.

I think many players have an unvocalized desire for a non-attrition based adventure structure. It's just not communicating to d&d designers.

I find it interesting that basically every edition's settings say that during the golden age past things were like they are in 5e, then the mega whoops happened and now we're here.

Had a wizard with a bat guano shortage. He was more of a lightning guy anyway, but he was low on ingredients for that too (this is in 3E). Lucky for me he could polymorph into a bat after eating the last of their Taco Bell, so he was good on that front. And being in a desert, he put together a crude kiln and using various spells to melt the glass and extrude it into rods. He did have ranks in Knowledge (Engineering) and was willing to try until it got it right. Burning Hands, after all, has no material component. There was enough brush that a regular fire wasn't out of the question either.
This of course led to the question, can you use Polymorph Any Object to create spell components? I would lean towards yes provided the transformation is "permanent" (there's a chart) and the spell component is a relatively mundane item that doesn't have to have living cells. So apples are mundane but alive, that'd be a no go (you want the resonance of an apple for a spell, after all, not just pulp and sugar and seeds and whatnot). But polymorphing a rock into a glass rod should be okay. Polymorphing a big rock into a long, long glass rod and then breaking it into appropriately sized small glass rods would be more efficient, and so on.
I guess my point is that if you have access to 8th level spells and at least a little bit of time to ef around, you should be able to overcome most problems if something isn't trying to kill you that very moment.
And before anybody poopoos my solution, I had more fun overcoming an ingredients shortage than killing any monsters we met along the way.

The reason why i like older editions & i grew up maintaining the spell components because thats how i learned to play the game and it made it more enjoyable.

Hard disagree as far as cantrips are concerned. I’ve always viewed 0-level spells being at-will as truly being an improvement. Only thing I’d change is the damage that attack cantrips do. I would be good with them dealing damage equal to the character’s proficiency bonus, across the board. They should be used as backups, an emergency fallback for when your good shit runs out. Situationally useful at best, and practically useless at worst, but always available. They are the spellcasting class’s magical equivalent to the entry level, basic bitch, melee and ranged self defense technique that every novice member of a martial class learns. It’s unreasonable and unrealistic (even for a fantasy game) to think or expect spellcasters to not have this, no matter how “high” or “low” the magic is within the setting.

But hey, to each their own. Peace.

Or just play BX and or BECMI...just saying

So completely agree.

My solution is a homebrew B/X / OSE game with flavours of Warhammer Fantasy and Dolmenwood. The main races are Humans with Dwarves, Elves, and Halflings around (No Gnomes), but crucially only Humans can use Arcane Magic (The Elves had their ability to use magic stripped from them millenia ago), and human magic is organised similar to the Towers of High Sorcery from Dragonlance, and Elves cannot use Clerical Magic either.

There are also much fewer Gods with their being one main human God (simialr to the Emperor from 40k), and 8 others both good and Evil (Dwarven Forge, Trickster god etc)

This really makes humans quite special in the world and keeps the setting very humanacentric, and keeps magic very strange as the only people who can use Arcane Magic are Wizards. no Cantrips for anyone else!

Druidic magic is available for anyone but Rangers can't cast spells and in the world Druids are not foudn on any corner (And also can't shapechange).

I don't think the problem is cantrips, as someone who is currently in a semi high level campaign, we're level 13. Pretty much all cantrip usage has been taken over by magic items and the like. We barely use anything below 3rd level spells unless the situation is really dire. I do agree too many of the D&D character races and classes get magic, but I don't think the real problem is the magic, it's that the sword doesn't destroy castles with meteors from 500 paces. The sword is less cool than the spell. That's where this whole mess begins.

I do think quite a number of utility spells need to go. Turn the wizard from the handyman into the cannon. Maybe remove the ability to summon monsters to do the tanking for them so the fighter/barbarian get their go. Though this will gimp the conjuration focused wizards a lot, but sacrifices must be made.

Making spells cost more money is also not a fix because money is worthless in D&D beyond buying plate armour. Me and the group are sitting on hundreds of thousands of the useless supposedly valuable paperweights. And that's with us actively looking to spend money. We poured so much gold into random things not because we had to, or even wanted to, but because we could. We are thinking of building the fantasy equivalent of the Suez/Panama canal, just to pour money into something. All you'd be doing is adding more bookkeeping. Which does appeal to some people, but not a lot of people.


This problem with magic runs a lot lot deeper than just magic itself.

I really like the idea of racial cantrips as "This is an elf. His racial magical ability is 'elf' and it lets him do elf things"

As an avid PF1 player I think cantrips are way too weak, with the notable exception of light. But I much prefer that to 5e. Having cantrips unlimited is fine, but then they need to be worse than weapons or equipment.

I think spells should have consequences other then action economy fireball should eat up oxygen on a spelljammer vessel acid splash should accidently melt treasure magic in general should ruin the environment! Im not saying punish your players at every turn! But if there stupid enough to launch a fireball at a puddle of lantern oil and blow them selves up thats on them! 😎

I know making these videos is a lot of work, but writing, and singing that list of magical PCs really impressed me in the amount of bravery and effort that must have taken.