The New and EVEN BETTER Immersive Sim Tier List

Okay I realize now I should take one of my replies about Fear and Hunger, copy it, and pin it here so people have a more fleshed out answer:

It was mainly on twitter and also some people that kept trickling into the discord, but while I initially said I'd be open to doing a video about the Fear and Hunger after being asked, I changed my mind after realizing how flippantly it treats certain subject matters for edge points and additionally I take HUGE issue with how the creator tried to pass it off as being Berserk-inspired. The only way I could see the latter is if someone just looked at the most gruesome pictures from Berserk but never actually read the manga. These people did not take me saying 'actually never mind. I really don't like the stuff in this game and don't want to give it lip service' well at all.

The last year has basically been every week or so someone coming into the discord or repeatedly @'ing my on Twitter asking for the game, me explaining for the umpteenth time that 'No, I object to the game and don't want anything to do with it', and then them taking it as if I'm the literal devil and pitching a fit at me. I've had some very negative experiences with the Fear and Hunger fandom this year and each one makes me want to make a video about the game even less.

A Fear and Hunger video is never happening on this channel or on any platform I have. I know better than to ever let any fandom harass me into making a video about their thing because once that happens the first time, every fandom ever now knows that bullying you into making a video about their thing works and they will be relentless until you cave in again, and again, and again. Standing your ground is an important part of being a creator.

i didnt agree with alot of this, but i could always see atleast where you were coming from

Dont ever let game devs koffArkanekoff pull rank on you in the comments. This is your channel and these are your opinions. Glad to see you held your ground immediately here lol

Blood West is marginal at best. You kill monsters with guns and melee weapons. Sometimes you sneak past them. That's it. If it's in the ImSim conversation then I think all stealth action games are in play: Generation Zero, Homefront Revolution, Hitman, the Assassin's Creed series, the Splintercell series, the Metro series, the Dying Lights, even Farcry 3-6 depending on difficulty and play style.

I also noticed that you disqualified the System Shock remake because it can't be "cheesed" like the original. But earlier you disqualified Bethesda's games because their emergence results from exploitation, i.e. cheese. That looks like a contradiction that places System Shock in and Skyrim out for the same reason. I think more work needs to be done to distinguish good cheese from bad cheese.

Good list, though!

Lol, Ctrl Alt Ego isn't even an imsim, let alone the best one. It's a first-person puzzle game, and a pretty mediocre one.

This is way too much cheese on the pizzas

Can somebody tell me what happened with peripeteia?

Where's the link for this tier list?

random cooking segment is a weird choice lmfao

(semantic nitpick mode, thanks for the great video) I've gotta disagree with the Elder Scrolls games not being on this list, they are immersive simulations through and through and the argument that they do not have "emergent gameplay" because they contain exploits seems tenuous at best.

Being able to pick from different schools of magic with tons of now-classic im-sim abilities, having alternate ways of approaching quests based on your attributes/build, somewhat nonlinear nature of the game, a degree of emergent simulation to the events of the world, and traditional first-person perspective, are all hallmarks of the genre.

Now, insofar as there is an "immersive-sim" spectrum, I agree that you could argue Skyrim skirts the line of "not" being an immersive sim, and even the Fallout games arguably do not quite allow for the kind of build diversity (especially stealth gameplay) that is traditionally associated. However, Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion should arguably be on this list. Thanks again for the nice vid.

While I think the System Shock remake is an immersive sim, I can see why you’d disagree with that. Great list regardless :)

I'd say Kingdom Come Deliverance could definitely count as an immersive sim.

Og System shock and dark messiah are s tier!!!!!!

Human Rev is not an imsim you have about as much freedom of expression as a rockstar title (very little)

What about Darkwood

in Morrowind you can click on the world item and drag it in your inventory (very immersive) and you fly (very sim). Also for Tears of the Kingdom - it's precisely because it has moments of "accidental" immersive gameplay that it can be considered immersive because it's not scripted but relies entirely on the game's systems, though I just call it a sandbox at this point

Nice try! But no games are imsims!! Try again next year.

I wouldn't put Dark Messiah in D tier myself but I think I just have a soft spot for old source-engine games that do a lot with an engine made for shooty shooty physics puzzles. The game is very linear and no strategy is as strong as knocking someone down and impaling them, but I have a lot of fun knocking people down and impaling them.

I wouldn't call it an im-sim either but I understand that half of the point of this video is to point out many people call games im-sims that are clearly not im-sims. And the video redeemed itself when we put Prey and The Bunker in S tier so overall good video.

This video also got me to finally take a look at Arx Fatalis which I've been hearing about for a while and now that it's $1.60 on Steam I gotta try it.

Sorry but this list was pretty shit. why even have games on the list of Immersive sims if you are just gonna put them in the list of 'not immersive sim'. Also i feel the things were ranked pretty poorly in general

Pretty surprised you haven't played Hitman, im 90% sure youd love it (its definitely an imsim).

Daggerfall and Daggerfall unity for me immersive sim for Tamriel

Arx fatalis!!Yes.Really appreciate you recognise it as a great game.Tanks bro.

The ImSim genre boundaries continue to confuse me. By the logic stated by the titans of the genre(warren spector, harvey smith, raphael colantonio), the point is to have systemic ways of interacting with the world and solving problems. Set missions with an open playing field of possibilities for the player to get creative. This to me seems the main point of ImSims. Just immersive systemic games. I don't see why MGS V wouldn't be. I think stacking boxes should be forgotten as some indicator of an ImSim. I'd be glad to hear some perspectives.

If Baldurs Gate 3 is an immersive sim, surely Divinity Original Sin 2 could arguably be considered one too, right?

Isn't the only reason people call Fear & Hunger an ImSim the SuperEyepatchWolf video?
He picks out one example of how you can treat an encounter differently by placing down a beartrap to cut of the enemies legs first but there honestly really isn't enough in it to be called an ImSim at all and I feel justified in saying that as I got very into that game last summer and feel like I know my shit.
The game also really doesn't need the SA and is honestly better played with a mod that removes it. Not that uncomfortable themes aren't something that can be used but it isn't a good use when an enemy does a special attack and then SAs the child character in your party.
The content warnings for this game should be taken very seriously.

The game was still really fun to figure out though. Very much for people who enjoy survival horror like games.

If you've heard about it, would you consider Space Station 13 an immersive sim? Debate's been going on for ages at this point.

Tears of the Kingdom only 'accidentally' has elements of emergent gameplay? The fuck? lol The whole game is built around emergent gameplay and the idea that gamers would find new and interesting ways to use the mechanics in game to accomplish different things. That was very literally the entire premise behind how the devs wanted to improve on Breath of the Wild(which already had a fair bit of this same identity). I really dont get how Tears of the Kingdom could NOT be an immersive sim by pretty much every definition you've used.

you forgot to mention black mirror bandersnatch

Great video. The only question that I have is "What constitutes an immersive sim in your opinion?". Its no wonder that people confuse what is and what isnt an im-sim, descriptions you can find on the internet are often vague and broad. So it would've been useful to identify what imsim implies and add it to the ground rules section.

I say this, because even being very familiar with the genre - I still found myself surprised that both Disco Elysium and Baldur's Gate 3 made it to the list, yet recieved so different a judgement. Always thought that if not an immersive sim - Disco Elysium was very close to it, but then thought Baldur's Gate 3 is just a great rpg, dnd made virtual.

Wondering about Kenshi, is it not considered an Im Sim?

Where is MGS V?

The Dark Project is underrated

At this point I don't even know what an immersive sim is anymore, due to BG3s addition to the tier list

Is project zomboid an immersive sim?
Is kenshi an immersive sim?
Is caves of qud an immersive sim?

Im always getting new games to play from this guy. Amazing!

I've played Cruelty Squad
Its shite

Hitman?

Given the inclusion of Baldur's Gate 3 on this list, would you consider including either of Larian's previous efforts (Divinity Original Sin 1 & 2) on future lists? I'm not sure they'd ever be worth doing videos on given both how extensively covered they were when released and given how long they are, but DOS2 ticks basically all the same boxes (I assume) BG3 ticks.

Also really enjoyed the vid!

Another potential addition to the Borderline category is "Iji", an indie game that came out back in the 2010s. Iji is ostensibly a 2D action platformer, but with enough tools and secret paths that it's possible to avoid/nonlethally subdue every foe in the game. Highlights include hacking your own augmentations to reset your stats in a precise way so that you can trivialize an early boss with an endgame weapon, and using a different endgame weapon to blast open a door (behind a wall) to bypass an entire portion of a level. Still nowhere near enough non-combat gadgets to really make the cut, but definitely interesting variety in approaches especially for a game of its type - also an impressive number of ways the game world and characters actually react to those approaches, even if it's only a smidge of extra dialogue.

For me, Dishonored 2 is to Dishonored what Mankind Divided was to Human Revolution: a better experience across the board. Every mechanic that I didn't like about the first game has been improved and everything I already loved is bigger and better. The only thing both games imo needed was a more meaningful manipulation of the environemnt (being able to turn off lights would've been awesome), and a more adaptive AI that reacts to your strategies and forces you to try new ideas.

Personally I would've bumped up Thief 2 to an A rank and Thief 1 to a B rank. Mostly because having Thief 3 on the same rank as Thief 1 just seems wrong. Also I think you might be letting your personal preferences on controls and gameplay cloud your judgement a bit on the Thief games. Then again, if you've ranked them as low as you have, because of a lack of Immersive Sim elements (which would be understandable), then I suppose the next best thing would be to downgrade Thief 3 to a D rank.
I mean seriously, Thief 3 is a huge downgrade from the original Thief, due in part to Thief 3 being made for consoles and ported to PC. (I still like the game though despite it's shortcomings. Especially once you get a few fan mods on it.)

Other than that though, I'd have also added Red Dead Redemption 2 into the list (as "Not An Immersive Sim" of course).

But overall, I'd say this list is spot on. I really like the ranking you gave to both Bioshock Infinite and Thi4f. (I especially liked how you pronounced Thi4f.)
Oh and as for the Hitman games, since you didn't include them because you don't know enough about them, most of them would easily fall into the "Not An Immersive Sim" rank, although I think a couple of them might fit into the "Borderline" rank.

some W takes and some L takes, it is what it is

This list is kinda whack. I’m not even sure how the Bunker is counts as an immersive sim at all

Love your vids CW, but saying that Deathloop is not only actually an immsim but B tier and ToK simply isn't at all is a fucking wild take...

aw man like come on cant you just recognize that eye is fun enough to warrant a c tier? its just mean at this point

Cruelty Squad is so amazing just thinking about it brings happy tears to my eyes 🥹

Im a thiefy boi so i was pretty salty but the pizzas soothed me i make similar ones myself with almost stale buns/rolls/baguettes

Aside from Dishonored 2 being slightly lower (I'd swap D1 and D2 placements) this is a pretty based list.

Kind of surprised not to see Postal 2 anywhere on the tier list, because while it's not entirely an Immersive Sim in nature, you have a choice in how to approach certain things, if you want to be a pacifist, and other things. Seems like one of the games that would be on the borderline at least.