What If the ATR 72's Small Wings Were Actually a Design MASTERPIECE?

The ATR's are unsafe? wait untill we tell the pilots, they'll be aghast that they've been flying a death machine without knowing, that information would've been useful at some point before 2000 of them were built LoL

Ah, so this is why the cabin staff on Emerald Air out of Belfast to regional British cities are strict about not moving to an empty row, at least until the plane is in the cruise. Thanks… so clear.

The only actual problem with the ATR is that it is French. This means it WILL have defects, but they won't be their fault.

Saying that a high-aspect-ratio wing is uNsTaBLe certainly goes against everything I've experienced about aircraft design....and I'm my aviation experience is at best charitably considered a plane spotter.

Indeed I always wondered how they could fly - at all. Thanks!

For Airplane designed for 400 km/h 350 kg/m² is unsafe.
I'll never fly on prop planes

Thank you for that excellent & circumspect explanation of high aspect wing characteristics & behaviors. I have linked your video for some of my model building students to consider & reflect upon; Reynold's scaling and model proportions for low drag/weight conscious building is a huge stumbling block for beginners. It was for me as a youngster.

The horizontal stabiliser being further back does increase short period pitch stability, but you also have to consider the effect of the longer fuselage itself. The longitudinal moment of inertia of the fuselage has also increased which destabilises the short period pitching mode. It's hard to say what the overall net effect is but if they didn't resize the horizontal tail, then it probably didn't change all that much.

It’s important for people to understand that, when it comes to physics, freedom of opinions and common sense don’t count, only verified facts and understanding of the theory, will give you predictions capabilities.

No, you are wrong about the wings too small. To reduce approach and landing speed you need sophisticated flaps. Comparing to other aircraft does not make sense at all. Owned a MU2 which is the same concept, had other problems, but not because the wing load was close to a B737.

I don't understand where all the hate for the ATR comes from. I have to admit that I have never flown on one, as I just never had the opportunity to do it, but (as long as I would fly on any aircraft operated by that airline*) I would not hesitate to do it if I had the chance.

*) Just to exclude operators with sketchy maintenance or sub-standard crew training, as they would be more dangerous, without blaming the ATR for that fact

What a great explanation and video. Thank you Captain!

Thanks!

I hate flying on these styles of aircraft, they are so susceptible to wind gusts and bounce around all over the place during landing.

Tha ATR wing is fine so long as there is no ice on it.

If you have a lower wing loading you have a higher sealing, that means less drag

With 1200 hours in the piece of shit I can say it's an excellent hot weather airplane. It can operate into small fields, in hot weather (doesn't mean it's anywhere near comfortable inside lol), fill every seat with people and both cargos with their bags, and do well. It's performance in cold weather way overshadows that success though. After my last flight on it I have not, and will not get on one again. And I fly the MAX now 😂

It cannot plane if engine fails

A few comments on the B-24 Liberator. At higher angles of attack, the wings of the B-24 could exhibit some challenges. High aspect ratio wings tend to have a more gradual stall, but the B-24 was known for having a somewhat abrupt stall behavior, especially if not flown correctly. This was due to the wing's design, which included a Davis wing profile with a high taper, leading to a concentration of lift towards the root of the wing.

The high aspect ratio can lead to the wingtips stalling before the root if the wing is not properly designed or if flown at very high angles of attack. This can cause control issues, particularly in turns where the inner wing might still be producing lift while the outer wing stalls. And in a combat aircraft like the B-24, these characteristics are not insignificant.

While the high aspect ratio wings were great for efficiency, they could make the aircraft less responsive at high angles of attack or during combat maneuvers where quick changes in direction or altitude were necessary.

Pilots had to be cautious with how they increased the angle of attack due to the possibility of losing control if the aircraft approached or entered a stall. The B-24's control surfaces, like ailerons, had less authority at these angles due to the flow separation over the wing.

The B-24 Liberator's high aspect ratio wings were optimized for long-range efficiency, making it an excellent choice for missions requiring endurance over combat agility. However, this design also meant pilots needed to be aware of the aircraft's behavior at high angles of attack, where the wing's characteristics could lead to less forgiving flight dynamics. Pilots were trained to manage these aspects carefully to ensure safe and effective operations. And the vast majority of pilots who underwent this training usd it with success. But there is no denying that in combat, usually over the target area, or leeaving the target area and being intercepted on the return flight to base, pilots handling the plane in a rough fashion, trying to avoid flak — or more commonly — enemy interceptors, demanded a higher degree of skill from B-24 pilots to keep them out of the Liberator's death zone.

As for Boeing/NASA's senseless SUGAR Volt Project (Subsonic Ultra Green Aircraft Research), it is a idiotic waste of tax payer's hard earned dollars to solve a non-existing problem. Boeing's management have proven themselves incapable of running the company safely and efficiently these past couple of decades. Just a few weeks back they decided to scrap their, quite frankly dangerous DEI program. The question is just now: —Is it too little too late.

Of course, with SUGAR Volt, they are 'smoking' their, oh so familiar OPM pipe (Other People's Money) to solvee a non-problem. We do not need less CO₂ in the atmosphere. We need MORE! Plant life is starved of CO₂ — The Gas of Life, as we are, geologically speaking, still coming out of the last glaciation period.

Saving is a great concept and the way to go about it would be research into ever more efficient engines, not carrying insane tonnage of battery packs into the air and crowding already crowded airports with airplanes with such poor performance that we are actually taking a step back in time. But for Heaven's sake, let the market decide when it's time to develop new technology, rather than forcing this madness onto the industry — Soviet Style! It will not work. If it had ever worked, the Soviet Union would still bee in existence.

So, since you brought up the scandalous SUGAR Volt Program, run by a company that is failing on several fronts and a Federal Government institution famous for busting budget with astronomical figures, I thought I would look up exactly how much the American Tax Payer has to bleed for this Soviet Era program. And wouldn't you know… Even the figures are kept Soviet Style! In other words: — The figures are SECRET. The budget overruns are SECRET. They obviously do not want the Americans forced to pay for this nonsense to know how much of their money is being wasted or who is getting rich in the process. Nothing new there. That's how all these "green" projects are run, while Child Slave Labor is rampant, mining minerals for the "Green Elite's" battery packs and the Planet isn't being saved by The Gas of Life, CO₂ — but rather poisoned by highly toxic mining operations and the dumping of toxic batteries at the end of their life-time.

Boeing has experienced significant budget overruns in other NASA projects like the Space Launch System (SLS) and the Commercial Crew Program's Starliner. For instance, the SLS project has seen billions in overruns due to delays and technical challenges. Similarly, the Starliner program has faced considerable cost overruns, with Boeing reporting losses totaling $1.5 billion as of 2023. It is quite frankly shocking that they waste money on these Neo-Marxist Pipe Dreams when the company is in shambles. And it isn't only the American Tax Payer who has to pick up the bill for this. It's also the Customer of the Aviation Industry in more expensive aircraft and higher Air Cargo prices.

I can guarantee that there is no "Man Made Climate Change". I can guarantee that there won't be any "Man Made Climate Change". In a century or so, when we will start thinking about alternative sources of Energy, a Free & Open Market will see to that. And at that point, there will be much more Common Sense moving things forward. That is really the only thing that has successfully been at the root of EVERY Innovation in Aviation!

I agree with your conclusions about the ATR 72, Fly with Magnar, which earned you one more subscription! 👍

el atr 72 y el atr 42 su problema real es su ineficaz antihielo y deshielo del ala, tanto que tienen prohibido volar en zonas norte de EEUU y Canada. Esta bien para volar en italia y francia donde se diseño.

I think the Dash 8 is a measurably better plane than the ATR...

Show me the math facts.

I do not have flight experience with the ATR, but have about 5000 hours on the Embraer EMB-120 Brasilia. It is exactly as you say: as far as wing loading the ATR 72 is absolutely normal. And the wing aspect ratio - which has a direct effect on induced drag - must be maximized as much as the design materials and and structural sizing resources (numerical methods, etc.) allow. Nothing wrong with the ATR here either. After the Roselawn accident in the US in 1994 ATR did improve the aircraft, doubling the chordwise deice boot length, adding annunciations and improving the abnormal procedures. The accident in Brazil was a combination of several factors: the aircraft was operating with a single a/c pack and consequently limited to 17000 feet, a very unfavorable altitude as far as icing is concerned. The amount of icing that day was very severe, completely unusual in the Sao Paulo state here in Brazil; it seems that one of the airframe the deice boots failed, generating a CAS message which calls for a checklist with two items: 1 - switch off deice 2 - Get out of icing immediately. The crew complied with the first item but ignored the second one. The aircraft lost speed, resulting in another annunciation, and the crew did not react to it. I get the impression that the crew did not understand the seriousness of the situation and the associated high risk.

Of course... I really doubt they would send an inadequate design for certification then building it because "sure, what the hell".

Those wings rather put me in mind of the Hurel Dubois of similar appearance. Its wings were similarly slim but had a larger span because it was designed as a STOL craft.

It's a terrible aircraft. I will not fly on it. Neither on the 737 Max.

BWB aircraft design and flying wing solves this problem

Apakah bisa diperlebar tanpa perombakan besar...?

I worked as Cabin Crew on the ATR 72-600, My only issue is the heat in the cabin which is horrific on the ground.

Thank you, very informative. ATRs serve Guernsey, a Channel Island where I come from. I do know that the wings have an iceing problem. In the case of the brazilian crash, however, multiple warnings were ignored for about 30 minutes and necessary measures not taken by the pilots.

I missed some information about the airfoil Profiles(s) used - Does it have any effect on "good nature" or susceptibility to icing?

u r spot on

The issue is airspeed on the wing, the propeller driven crafts will land slower thus may need more wing area I suppose.

We cannot argue with your analysis but I would point out that my home airport IOM, is noted for the worst weather possible and many years of benign Dash-8 flying never caused concern. However, on switching to the ATR's, immediately one became aware of something not 'right' on final approach/flaring. As a single engine PPL with many types logged, flying qualities are paramount and the first ATR problems I believe were aerodynamic tail blanking at slow speed, and just sitting in the back of one in difficult conditions dose my confidence no good! You Guys up front concentrating hard, might never 'enjoy' the arse clenching the cattle class endure!

You are unlikely to see a video of a Dash spinning out of the clouds.

Nice; I know there is a relationship with cord length and Reynoldsnumber and speed. Lots of things and relationships I forgot though

They look like poor man's An-140-100

Pensavano di progettare un aliante , forse , visto l'allungamento alare ...

How does the thrust from the engines influence the wing parameters of the ATR-42 and ATR-72? Thanks. Per (Bornholm / Denmark, RNN - CPH passenger)

Thanks to put commenters in their due position.

Thanks.

Most definitely not an expert. I have a memory, probably a decade old, where a news article suggested that one of these designs had the de icing 'boot?' in the wrong place, making it ineffective. Aren't most accidents in these types attributed to icing conditions?

This plane has been involved with too many accidents. All can not be pilots fault.

I'm glad someone counted the rivets....

i flew the ATR for several thousands of hours as PIC,great machine for non icing conditions , severe icing shut be strictly avoided !! Dash Bomb. is another world to say it in simple mode.

That was a CIA propaganda opinion...after usa space force attacked that Brazilian plane last month

Photoshop ping the wings to make them look smaller than they are and using an AI voice are signs of the pathetic morals of the author

Fun historical fact: when the first Airbus A300 was made, the workshare agreement between the core Airbus countries was (and still mainly is) that the UK will design and build the wings. The French who didn't want to lose these capabilities decided to launch the ATR with the Italians with a completely different workshare (wings designed and built in France). So the ONLY purpose of the ATR was indeed the wings.

I wasn't afraid of flying in a ATR before but now all I can think about are the size of the wings.