Clones Aren't Killing Gaming - They're Saving It

you made great points and overall i can see why but somehow you're reasoning for clones being bad and good is kinda surface level?

Excellent video that sums up my feelings on the subject perfectly. Bonus points for the Dream Quest shout out too, that's such an oft forgotten little artifact of a game that anyone who likes deckbuilders should really take a look at.

To be fair to Remnant and its sequel, they're still fun games (especially with friends) if you aren't specifically hoping that the "souls-like" tag means that it actually plays or feels like Dark Souls or similar games. They use the same base tools of stamina management, bonfires, and recharging heal items, but the focus on ranged combat and a gallery of monsters with different attacks gives it more in common with horde shooters and Destiny. That one aspect breaks the formula, in a very divisive way. Some will like this different style, and others will be annoyed by spongy elite enemies and boss fights.

Frankly though, I just want more souls-like games that have good, functional co-op. A huge part of the appeal for me is that Remnant doesn't kick your entire party every time you clear an area, kill a boss, or die. You cannot convince me that Dark Souls co-op is good so long as it holds so much animosity and hatred for wanting to have a second or third player.

Thank you for this video!

So in summary, best clones that don't do anything particularly new, are the ones that recognize that their inspiration still has flaws and undesired elements. And them fix them.

Remember how long we had games with score that didn't do anything and where score a good metric of grading gameplay? Or video game lives that seemed to only artificially lengthen the game? Or RPG games with pointless random battles. These all were taken when the games didn't understand the context these were implemented in the first place (first two from arcade games, the third from being rooted to tabletop RPGs, coupled with technical limitations of hardware at the time).

I think a good Clone of a game deserves to be called a (Game type)Like rather than clone.

I enjoyed Sundered very much and i didnt care about being random generated

I think this video stretches the definition of a clone. If a game take a couple of mechanisms of a previous one and add a new spin or new mechanics to it, that's not really cloning. Almost no creative artifact avoids being inspired or takings bits off previous works. People have issues with games that are 99% the same as a previous game and call them disparagingly clones.

What Adam calls "good clones" are games that are not lazy copies but take a previous work and evolve it. If that's cloning, then all art is cloning and the term is meaningless.

They need to clone skyrim and its mod system

Sundered is my favorite game!

Not because of the procedurally generated world, which in a sense REALLY fits the vibe of the game, but because of the movement and combat system.

The ominous Gong you hear before a massive flood of enemies comes for you is giving me a feeling I haven't come across in another game since.

As always, there needs to be balance. Having lots of similar games is great, if you like the thing they're all copying. If you don't, then it sucks. So when everyone just ends up copying one game, and doing nothing else, lots of people are going to be unhappy.

And the opposite is true, too. If every single game is completely different, then most of them will probably fall outside your personal tastes, and you won't like them. And, if course, just because your game is different, doesn't mean its good.

True evolution comes from both innovation, and iteration. Sometimes you need something completely new, and sometimes you simply need to tweak something old. So, knowing how and when to do both is the key to success.

so the way games grow is to take a previously great game and make it better

The game that showed this to me was cassette beasts. It was the first "pokeclone" that felt like it was not a "pokeclone" but its own standalone monster catcher. And I miss the CB combat system and type chart when I replay Pokemon.

There's a difference between taking inspiration from something and copying it outright.

Hey there! I'm Fannon, long time fan of the channel. Remnant II was actually my first studio release as a designer, so seeing the hunter armor in the thumbnail was a real trip hahah. Hope you enjoyed your time with the game and thanks for playing!

🤡 Yes! Creative bankrupcy is "saving" gaming

clone at least have to have one aspect that are better than the original

A good clone is worth it. Sure, most of them are not groundbraking but it gets the job done and provents content drought. I have played a ton of clones. Middle shelf games and clones was a thing I played for ages. But that people take the same consept and take their own spin on it. That means something is really good for people to think, hey, lets try to use that style. Then lets not forget that you get the next genres due to someone expreminted with something that already existed. Or subgenres, some times hybrids. I have played a bunch of them. One of my fav RTS was a hybrid, Earth 2160 I think it was called, it was an RTS, or if you whated too, a FPS. I have never heard someone say clones are killing gaming, ever. Is that a new thing?

Game devs needs to stop looking at call of duty for close range gunplay and start looking at monster hunter

Using disco elysium's soundtrack is tight

Game I wish was cloned: Uncharted Waters. Naval exploration/trade/combat. Could also apply the concept to sci-fi or fantasy. Recent game called Sailing Era is the closest I’ve seen to a true clone of it.

how would clones be killing gaming?
EVERYTHING is now a clone. there is not a single game concept that has not already been made.

>before I was ever born
One thing to keep in mind is that normal gamers, people who played games, didn't use the term "doom clone".
We called the games doom, duke, quake etc.
Doom clone is almost purely a product of review magazines.

Whats funny about the short talk about vampire survivors clones is that Vampire survivors is in itself a clone, of Magic survival, albiet one that does do what a good clone should and distinguish itself extremely well.

I like clones, What is currently pissing me off, is the new thing, where Massive gaming companies, are using false marketing to make games that aren't even close to the Genre they are listed as, by making a graphical system SEEM like its a functional system, but then Removing that system from affecting anything in the back end hidden from the player.

For instance, Level Scaling mechanics, invalidate 90% of the effort put into your characters growth, while allowing developers to not actually put in any effort to making an "RPG".
All they have to do, is create a single entity, then just "level scale" it to you, and copy paste it everywhere.
This has become so common, its difficult to find an RPG without it, while in the past, each new character or monster felt like a new beast, that just isn't so anymore.

You sometimes find a game that does go back to the roots, like Dark souls, or Elden Ring, but its so far and between its painful.
While yes, Souls likes and Even Elden Ring have Level scaling, this only happens AFTER the first run of the game, allowing you to increase the difficulty so you aren't just some one hitting monster, allowing for fun to continue without affecting the overall feel of the game, this is a good usage.
Using it as a way to avoid development cycles, is a TERRIBLE usage of Level scaling.

There are many other similar problems with gaming like this, but I haven't focused on this problem lately, as I have felt less and less like gaming since the Trend of making Massive quantities of low quality games, to garner the most profit with the least effort started.

Gaming is dying, and it is due to bad developers, lazy shortcuts and anticonsumerism.

As far as Remnant 2, while there is undeniably inspiration from the Soul formula(even in gameplay loop). Due to its other inspirations, you can say it’s distinct enough that it shouldn’t be a “clone” of Souls. When I play it, I am not thinking of Souls, it just feels more “new” and distinct.

CRUSH THE CASTLE BROTHER HELL YEAH!!! Bro i love that game i replayed it and the sequel so many times as a child probably my favourite flash games

you know nothing about gaming. Clones just die and add nothing new but bloat and split playerbases

AAA studios are “killing” gaming well enough on their one

Clones are saturating the market, which kills originality.

What is the music in the background?

Wow, Crush The Castle was probably one of the first games on PC, i remember the first time i got into it in my neighbours house, i've stayed playing until 1am there, didnt wanted to get out, completely got addicted, thanks for bringing this memory back to me lol. NEVER FORGET!!

Without clones, ideas would never get further than the original artist can carry them. Art goes much further when new people can pick up the ball and run with it. If you've a mind to, you can conjure up a million ways in which any given piece of art is "derivative" because surprise surprise, very few people invent entirely new art form, It's all made of things that came before it, and that's exactly how things should work. The state of the art cannot progress if we all have to start again from scratch..

Years ago many people complained Genshin Impact is a Breath of the Wild clone. Now having experienced both games as well as the more recent TotK, i'm excited for Genshin developers to continue copying games like TotK which ara technological marvels in their own right. While not many people claim GI is better exploration game then Zelda, one thing it did was giving us some of the most enjoyable underwater exploration in all of gaming.

Same old stupid flat statement "Lies of P is Bloodborne"

"Good artists copy, great artists steal."

Speaking of Souls clones, the games that most blew me away were the two Nioh ones, that I think did an excellent job at reinventing the genre with their more complex combat system, Diablo-esque loot and mission-based level design rather than semi-open world. I was just thinking how right now I'd probably love to see Nioh clones over Souls ones at this point, because that formula deserves to see way more use.

Wo Long was also decent at trying to take Sekiro's parry-based combat and try to add a little more RPG stuff onto it, but I feel it ended up being nowhere near as good as what they accomplished with Nioh, although still a good game all things considered. It's good for it that great value Sekiro is still pretty damn satisfying.

If a game is distinctive enough to have its own identity and feel, then by definition it stops being a clone and instead is a descendant.
So your whole argument is a load of BS. Expected as much when I clicked the video, but I still cringe at the Extra Credits level of self-gaslighting. Had to step away before the 10 minute mark, as you laid it out bare by then and you regurgitating the same argument for the next 15 minutes is not something I'm inclined to indulge. Yes - repetition legitimizes - but only if one doesn't catch you red handed at BS. Repetition of BS has the opposite effect.

One huge aspect in my book on why clones are so important that you did not address is that they allow the gameplay to reach a wider audience. I have played the first quarter of both Dark Souls and Sekiro, but did not enjoy them and stopped playing. So when Star Wars Fallen Order came around I got the chance to really dig into a Souls-like gameplay loop which I enjoyed a lot. And since I hadn't played or enjoyed all of DS/Sekiro the complaints you had about "been there, done that" for the Star Wars games I never had.

Ehhh… this assumes someone is playing all these games. If you haven’t played “the original” the clone isn’t going to compare to it for the player. For a small minority that will be true, but for most it won’t be. Basically, you fall into the “games journalism” problem. You play so many games, your opinion is biased. Most people aren’t playing as many games as you, and therefore aren’t going to know the entire lineage of a games history and its parentage. I’ve played enough games with playing their sources of inspiration to know it doesn’t matter. What matters is the individual game itself. Am I having fun?

Why does he keep excluding the Castlevania half of Metroidvania and only mention metroid? He isn't the first I've seen do this either. Do people just hate the Castlevania series??

Leaving out the vania of metroidvenia feels a little bit insulting. There's a reason it has both titles merged for the genre name

You and I have the exact opposite taste in clones.
Lies of P was the only souls-like I didn't enjoy this year.

Doom was the game when I was in middle school and I only heard the term "Doom Clone" a few times and "FPS" was definitely the more common name.
I don't care what Wikipedia told you, the intro to this video is fake and gay.

Cloning is good both as evolution and preservation, depending on how its done. I was torn between trying to make a Sims clone and an Elder Scrolls clone, until some changes in my life left me without the time for such big and over-ambitious projects -- though really, making the life simulator first and them copying parts of it into the RPG seems most compelling, even if its more than one person could probably do any way.

There's a reason why minecraft, overwatch, fortnite and half-life were not considered clones of their predecessors. All of them are much more polished than their inspirations and/or have strong innovations of their own.